Ice on the moon a "game-changer"

[tw]

Originally Posted by Elspode

I have to admit that I was pretty impressed by how Hubble serviced itself all those times.

It did that repeatedly for years until eventually man went to service a 1970s technology. 30 years later and we still had nothing better? Well, $80billion was wasted to keep men unproductively in space.

Sky could have had complete coverage with multiple later generation Hubbles easily serviced by robots if $80billion was not wasted on something that does no science. Then we had to spend even more to send humans to fix an old technology Hubble. No replacement existed. Technologies that could have done the work better still do not exist. Instead we spent $80billion dollars for a political agenda - science and innovation be damned.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Flint

Public Service Announcement: The term "game changer" is on my list of over-used phrases which need to be forcibly eradicated. As is "sea change."

But in this case it is appropriate. Until now they were only able to play golf up there. Now they can play hockey, too!

[tw]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

But in this case it is appropriate. Until now they were only able to play golf up there. Now they can play hockey, too!

When I drop a tool, it sometimes lands on my foot. Nobody cares. If I slice a golf ball, that is normal. When a lady dropped her tools, it is monitored and tracked by people all over the world for years. Her tool bag is now listed alongside other orbiting satellites. Some mistakes are not forgotten. (Whatever happened to Bill Buckner?)

[Clodfobble]

Oh, so the 24 gallons was only the splash? That makes more sense. I was imagining this bathtub's worth of a puddle in the bottom of a crater.

[Elspode]

Right, and the "splash" wasn't a splash in the normal sense of the word. It was a splash of lunar material, a cloud of regolith and rock, and part of that material is water. It is certain that there is no liquid water (no atmosphere = no atmospheric pressure = water sublimates and goes bye bye), and probably not even any ice on the macro scale, for the same reason. The water is bound up somehow, and preserved in that bound state by dint of the fact that this particular part of the moon is perpetually cold because no sunlight hits it.

[ZenGum]

In the Human Vs Machine debate, if the purpose is science, machines are better value. A human would only use fancy instruments anyway, so they might as well control the instruments from back on earth or via software.
A machine can stay so much longer. Consider the two Martian Rovers, Spirit and Opportunity. Despite their 90-martian-day design plan, they have been running for 2,092 and 2,071 days respectively. All this for well under a billion dollars. Love those little tigers.

[ZenGum]

95% agree ... but you could use energy from sunlight, collected by photovoltaic cells, to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, thus turning the lunar water into usable fuel, or oxygen for breathing. But, as you say, massively inefficient and pretty pointless.

Meanwhile, New scientist has a discussion on human space flight here.

It may simply be that space exploration is incompatible with US democracy. A Mars shot would take four presidential terms at least. No president will ask taxpayers to fund something he won't be around to take credit for.

Another big problem is the legacy of some terrible decisions that left NASA with the expensive, dangerous space shuttle and a white-elephant space station that manages the feat of making space seem as dull as cardboard. The whole thing is a mess.

but then

The act of putting a human into space remains a high-profile and politically potent showcase for the world's major industrial nations. What began as a race between the US and the Soviet Union has morphed into a multinational display of membership of the modern world. Like Olympic competition, human space flight has become one of the few acceptable outlets for overt displays of national pride. The fact that China has now entered the game virtually guarantees major western democracies won't back out.....
In the US, the jobs and material resources invested in human space flight are substantial and politically significant. As long as Florida plays a key role in determining who gets to be president, no US politician would lightly consider disbanding the programme.

[tw]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Meanwhile, New scientist has a discussion on human space flight

From that article:

Another big problem is the legacy of some terrible decisions that left NASA with the expensive, dangerous space shuttle and a white-elephant space station that manages the feat of making space seem as dull as cardboard. The whole thing is a mess.

Technical details. Probably the most difficult part of Man to Mars (or living on the moon) is genetically destructive radiation. We have no theoretically reasonable solution. Only solution was to surround a spacecraft with six feet of water - at something like $1000 or $10,000 per oz (forgot the exact number).

To solve this problem will require solutions probably located in quantum physics. But America has killed numerous research projects because $80billion was burned to keep men unproductively in space. That $8billion Super Collider that would now be doing years of quantum physics research. But was quashed to pay for an $80billion ISS. Damning numbers.

Numerous other problems are best solved first on earth. Most solutions to space are first developed on earth. Only then might men be sent to Mars or the Moon to service machines. IOW science must be defined by scientists - not by a political agenda or 'glory'.

Kennedy was so much different than George Jr. Kennedy did due diligence when deciding we could put a man on the moon. He question those who actually knew how things work. The project even came in under budget. George Jr did what he always does. Looked into someone's eyes to see his spirit. Then know we could put a man on Mars. IOW he decided using a political agenda. Unfortunately our space program is now dominated by a political agendas. People who think like George Jr.

America has already lost the satellite launching business to other nations that made decisions productively based upon numbers and science - France and Russia. Leadership lost only because 'glory' was more important than the science.

That New Scientist article demonstrates the problem. But I fear it is too restrained. America's space program is so mismanaged by politics that only Russian and French rockets will get to the ISS. A problem created by classic American political agendas - not by science and numbers.

That New Scientist article describes what has been obvious long before Columbia disintegrated - because management could not be bothered to listen to scientists and engineers.

[Undertoad]

massively inefficient

Moon's got nothing but time.

[TheDaVinciChode]

TW - From your posts, I can tell that your head is (very firmly) shoved right up your arse. Please, remove it.

$80 Billion? For a new frontier? For exploration? For science? Seems great.

Compare that to one year of America's swelling military budget. Compare it to federal bail-outs.

Still a big number? No.

The benefits of finding water on the moon? Using it as a staging post for future missions to other planets. A high theoretical possibility, especially now that we have discovered water, regardless of the limited quantities.

Science is not all about facts and figures. It's about EXPLORATION. This is what defines us, as a species. Our intelligence, our ability to question, or desire to know more... You cannot truly know something, until you see it for yourself, until you touch it, feel it, smell it. Having a billion rovers on Mars, will still not tell us about it, not on a human level. GOING there, a manned mission, will change it, it'll change everything about it.

More money, the world over, should be spent on such endeavours... Exploration vs War... it's a no-brainer, really. The more we strive to reach the stars, to question, to understand, the less we'll feel the need to attack one another, over meaningless, stupid lines on a map, or points of view.

United through exploration. That's humanity. That's mankind.

Bean-counters like yourself, who deny the human impact, and requirement... are the people holding back true exploration... holding back the social advancement of our entire species, simply because you're so out of touch with the true essence of humanity. What a waste, what a shame.

When we look up at the stars, we seek understanding. When we run out of questions, we ask new ones. It's not about the cost, it's NEVER about the cost. It's about the questions, the understanding... The thrill of something new.

Are you even human? Do you even care?

Okay, you may now re-insert your head into your anal cavity. Enjoy your closed world.

--

EDIT: The above is all true, too, in regards to the ISS... We have men, and women, of multiple nations... living together... working together... in space. How can you deny the amazing impact that this has, on the whole world? Doesn't do much in terms of "science," by your definition? Big deal. It's astonishing, that it's there... They are living OUT OF THIS WORLD. That's the human spirit, in full force. That's exploration. That's pushing boundaries. That's exploring new frontiers. That's growth.

You know what else? It's science, too... They may not perform amazing experiments, all the time, nor produce entirely new ideas, nor test every possible theory... but they do experiment, test, and theorise... The money is not a factor that should ever be placed, on such an amazing achievement... on such a leap towards the stars.

And, again - It's nothing, in comparison to a warmongering nation's military budget, so... why fret over pennies?

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheDaVinciChode

You know what else? It's science, too... They may not perform amazing experiments, all the time, nor produce entirely new ideas, nor test every possible theory... but they do experiment, test, and theorise...

Science is exploration. Only myths say someone must touch it. The best science, discovery, and exploration involves things that cannot or must not be touched. Welcome to science and exploration where touching something may even create less useful knowledge. Simply kill the knowledge or the human. Exploration is about knowledge - not touching something.

ISS means three people do nothing but maintenance. Massive innovation, science, exploration, discovery, and knowledge could have happened if listening to scientists who actually do this stuff. Instead you have reiterated a political agenda.

Turning screwdrivers in space. Trying to fix a defective toilet. That proves science was ongoing? That means exploration? It must. According to you, they were touching something. People from many countries were participating. Therefore science and exploration was happening. Aw shit.

Learn about the Martian Rovers where science, exploration, discovery, and knowledge is actually happening. Much of what made the Rovers so successful were equipment custom designed, built, operated, analyzed, or diagnosed in places such as Manhattan, Germany, Spain, and Australia. How can this be since they all were not in space - doing nothing productive? Science and international cooperation is found mostly in unmanned science. Many nations actively working to join large groups of international explorers who are doing science, exploration, and discovery using the only thing that does almost all of exploration - unmanned space vehicles. Only useful exploration of space is conducted by humans who never leave earth. Learn about what was required to actually do any advancement of mankind - ie Cassini - an international endeavor.

ISS is a science disaster. ISS is how to not search out anything. Does not even go when no man has gone before. More exploration and research was performed on one short Columbia mission than on ISS after a decade. Worse ISS is scheduled to be decommissioned in about four years. Mankind learned so much building a science station that does virtually nothing? That is good? List it. Not subjective 'human learning to be friendly to humans' nonsense. List $80billion worth of accomplishments. Nobody else can. Share what you know. Let’s see all these accomplishments - not previously posted press releases.

$80billion makes the obvious even simpler. No science. No exploration. Even a Super Collider to perform massive science, exploration, and discovery using people from all over the world was only $8billion. But we killed that and so much more to pay for ISS and 'glory'. Somehow 'glory' advances mankind? Somehow glory is called exploration?

Worse again, ISS is barely in space. Must be repeatedly boosted to higher orbit due to friction from earth's atmosphere. You call that exploration? Barely out of earth's atmosphere. Doing nothing but fixing and replacing parts for almost ten years and $80billion. No instruments to study stars. But that is exploration?

Add to a list of 'glory' accomplishments "Mission Accomplished". A purpose similar to ISS. Since you want to add irrelevant peripherals such as a military budgets, let's discuss another useless endeavor conducted only for 'glory' with no useful purpose. Initiated by the same people who destroyed so many ongoing space missions that did not have glory - just did science. Apparently you approve. After all, mankind learned so much by overthrowing Saddam - using your reasoning. Since we touched him, then mankind's knowledge was advanced. After all, 'glory' advances mankind - apparently.

How many stars did ISS astronauts study? None. All 'looking at the stars' is performed by robots atop mountains or by robots in space. ISS crew is too busy fixing and replacing broken parts that don't even look at stars. Somehow "human life support equipment" maintenance becomes science, exploration, discovery, and the advancement of mankind? I did not know Ed Norton and the Maytag repairman advanced mankind - also do exploration.

Fortunately, less than 10% of NASA's budget does virtually all the science and exploration - using unmanned solutions and international cooperation.

What creates war? Things done in the name of glory. What unites all in mankind's advancement? Science. The world is fully cooperating in things that actually do science such as the Large Hadron Collider in Cern. Massive money spent to achieve science means so many go elsewhere where science is actually ongoing and earning more respect. Fixing toilets and replacing gyroscopes in orbit does not advance mankind. But operating unmanned probes all over the solar system through international cooperation advances all. That means no money wasted on the ISS or 'Mission Accomplished' - which do no science and therefore do not advance mankind. Both exist only for 'glory'.

[Elspode]

You know, in the unlikely event that our species isn't extincted by the time the Sun turns into a big bloated red thing and consumes all but the rocks of our fair Earth, I'd kinda like our species to be really, really comfortable with the relocation process.

[TheDaVinciChode]

TW - You really are an ignorant little thing, aren't you?

You didn't pay attention to a word I wrote... Which is terribly sad, and shows how closed-minded you are. Must be all the shit clogging your ears from having your head so firmly shoved up your arse, for so long.

It is NOT just about numbers. It is NOT just about pure science. It is about exploration, it is about doing something, reaching outwards... These are things that machines CANNOT do. They can explore, yes, but, not in the true sense of the word. That's like saying "I watched The Discovery Channel, and explored The Amazon Rainforest." You didn't explore it, you didn't interact with it, you didn't do anything other than sit on your arse, and see moving images of it, on a T.V screen. That is NOT exploration. What makes that so difficult for you to understand? Do you have a single human bone in your body? Are you that much of a bean-counting, fact-toting douche, that all desire for true, human exploration, human question, the quest for human knowledge, has been taken away from you?

Replacing man, with robot, will destroy mankind, in terms of exploration. We will create robots to do the menial jobs for us, so that we can spend more time doing exactly that - Explore, Discover, Question. Leave the ROBOTS to the bean-counting, to the number-crunching science. Leave the exploration, to the only creatures capable of doing so - THE HUMANS... because robots will never do it as we can. They'll crunch the numbers, they'll throw the facts... they won't live it, nor experience it.

You completely glossed over the fact that, in comparison to federal bail-outs, or America's swelling military budget, that $80 Billion is a few pennies... A few pennies, for something as extraordinary, as living in space, with multiple nations, performing experiments (no matter how "mundane," if that is what you believe,) and partaking in a new frontier. How can that be a bad thing? It's not, that's how. Pennies, sir... pennies.

How sad your life must be, if you will try to take from that accomplishment, from the greatness of that human achievement, just because your Government doesn't allocate enough funds from its warmongering, to allow for Earth-based science, as well as extra-terrestrial exploration.

Humans explore. Humans ask questions. Humans seek that personal connection with anything.

It is in our nature. Why try to take away from that?

Much more money has been spent on failed projects, on warmongering, on bailing out failing businesses, just to keep the fat-cats happy. Complain about THAT money being poorly used, because, no matter what you say, you CANNOT justify a few pennies being "misused" to further the boundaries of human exploration, understanding... human nature. If you feel so strongly about the lack of science being performed on the ISS, stop seeing it as merely a "tool of science," and see it for what it truly is - A station, in space, where people live, perform experiments, observe, and... explore. It is not a robot, it is not a tool, therefore, it is not comparable to the Mars Rovers, nor the Hubble Space Telescope, nor any machine that you desperately try to compare it to, simply to pursue your pathetic agenda.

[TheDaVinciChode]

Originally Posted by tw

Next time you do design on space based equipment, then let us know you finally learned something.

And next time try to do it like an adult; not like UG.

The emboldened statement has nothing to do with this discussion, at all.

Stating an opinion of ignorance, is not childish. It's an opinion based on the ignorance of your posts.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheDaVinciChode

The emboldened statement has nothing to do with this discussion, at all.

Your every post is starts with an insult. Being nasty is how you like it. So lets talk about the size of your penis - since that also has so much relevance to your brain size.

Thank god you do nothing that involves science. Numbers are irrelevant? Well, they were to George Jr. So how big does your penis get everytime you say science is not about discovery and exploration?