The absurdity of Donald Trump

[Gravdigr]

Reckon hell, it almost killed 'em.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Outcome won't change things: precisely;

And it's funny: no candidate would ever suggest touching Social Security and Medicare... in the time I've watched, they remain pretty untouched... but every election season I've paid attention to, the sides work out how to suggest the other side will fuck them up. It's all about the sides!

Y'know, when it comes to examples of why Trump should not be President, we're all spoiled for choice. Literally spoiled, he's made his behavior so loud and so incessant that it's just impossible to sustain the outrage it deserves, much less keep up with all the shit this guy says and does. The fashionable term is "normalized". I'm not normalized to his ... everything, but I am fucking tired of it.

Here's a textbook example. You say,

no candidate would ever suggest touching Social Security and Medicare...

and you're well advised to say such a thing, what self-destructive idiot would ever suggest such a thing?!?!


what? We have a caller on Line One? Ok, patch him through.

Trump’s remarks came in the context of a discussion about the national debt, which has ballooned to historic levels under his presidency despite his 2016 campaign promise to eliminate it entirely. After Trump claimed that cutting the debt would be a focus of his second term, host Martha MacCallum pointed out that “if you don’t cut something in entitlements, you’ll never really deal with the debt.”

But before “you’ll never really deal with the debt” even escaped MacCallum’s lips, Trump interjected to agree with the first part of her statement — that cuts to programs like Social Security and Medicare will be necessary to get the debt under control.

“Oh, we’ll be cutting,” he said. “We’re also going to have growth like you’ve never seen before.”

Yeah, that guy.

A couple of hot takes on why this is bad and should be avoided.

1 -- It's a dumb thing to say because nobody wants their entitlements cut.

2 -- It's dumb because he opens his mouth before his brain's in gear.

3 -- I'm sick of having The White House, and god knows how many apologists tell me what Trump meant. The man really should be able to speak for himself.

4 -- Scandalously, the walk-backs, the re-interpretations, the corrections and clarifications are often 180 degrees from what Trump actually said. Listening to him trying to do it for himself awhile ago when he was *explaining* what he said about his understanding of Putin's position about election interference. First he said "why would it be?" then a minute later, and by a minute, I mean one brutal news cycle, he said "why wouldn't it be?", just exactly the opposite.

Originally Posted by Trump

“The sentence should have been, ‘I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be Russia,’” Mr. Trump said. “Sort of a double negative.” “So,” he concluded, “you can put that in. And I think that probably clarifies things pretty good by itself.”

Riiiiiight. He probably thinks I'm as stupid as he is, or worse, that he's as smart as I am. He's wrong either way.

So, back to your point UT, what do you think about this politician pledging to cut entitlements?

[Undertoad]

It's fine. Trump doesn't parse the word "entitlements" like vox.com does; and in the context of the conversation, he doesn't parse it at all, before he's on to his answer.

Everybody who was watching understood that, too.

See, the game where Trump's words are carefully parsed for the least charitable take is a LOSING game. Here's the secret, if you want to know how Trump's supporters listen to the interview:

Stop parsing words and just listen for the emotional appeal.

I know how much you enjoy parsing, and how much the media enjoys it. You get to read vox.com articles and get your dopamine fix. The media gets their "Trump bump" of clicks and ratings. It seems like winning. But the words are not the important part. Pay attention to the emotions. The emotions of vox.com are negative, loser emotions. The emotions of Donald Trump are winner emotions.

Furthermore, you should parse a conversation like a conversation, and a joke like a joke, if you want to understand. That's the part of Trump that is immediately appealing; that's how he expects to be parsed. Old-school politicians speak slowly, carefully, measured, studied, stiff and teleprompted, facts at the ready, so that nothing they can say can be parsed incorrectly. The problem is, nobody in our everyday world talks like that. If they did, we wouldn't trust them!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Words have meaning, don't you think the leaders he talks to around the world parse what he says when he's representing the US?

He's running the country like he ran his businesses... run up a huge debt, pocket as much as possible, then walk away.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It's fine. Trump doesn't parse the word "entitlements" like vox.com does; and in the context of the conversation, he doesn't parse it at all, before he's on to his answer.

Everybody who was watching understood that, too.

See, the game where Trump's words are carefully parsed for the least charitable take is a LOSING game. Here's the secret, if you want to know how Trump's supporters listen to the interview:

Stop parsing words and just listen for the emotional appeal.

I know how much you enjoy parsing, and how much the media enjoys it. You get to read vox.com articles and get your dopamine fix. The media gets their "Trump bump" of clicks and ratings. It seems like winning. But the words are not the important part. Pay attention to the emotions. The emotions of vox.com are negative, loser emotions. The emotions of Donald Trump are winner emotions.

Furthermore, you should parse a conversation like a conversation, and a joke like a joke, if you want to understand. That's the part of Trump that is immediately appealing; that's how he expects to be parsed. Old-school politicians speak slowly, carefully, measured, studied, stiff and teleprompted, facts at the ready, so that nothing they can say can be parsed incorrectly. The problem is, nobody in our everyday world talks like that. If they did, we wouldn't trust them!

Hey UT, I just want to say this at the outset.

Parsing is reading for comprehension, for understanding. It's not a bad thing, despite Trump's epic badness at doing it. Words do matter, and he murders them on the daily.

Now, having parried your attack on the value of "parsing", let's talk about his most recent failures to communicate.

How about President Trump's recent, teleprompted address from the Oval Office. (The urge to start this next sentence with "how do you explain..." is strong but horribly unfair. You obviously have opinions, which I respect, but I know you can't explain him. I won't ask you to.) I'll just point out that (*again*) he said things that were just plain wrong. His wrong statements caused immediate trouble, not like "Covfeve". It is ABSURD of him to say the things he says.

I have opinions too about why he talks like this. He's out of his depth in this role. There are aspects about it that he likes, the power, there's a lot of power, the trappings and the attention, craptons of that too. But there is also responsibility to do the work--ALL THE WORK. And he just can't do it. And his other character flaws, like valuing loyalty over everything else, including competence, prevent--no, cripple--him in his attempts to delegate important responsibilities he won't/can't/is oblivious to execute himself.

And the words, jfc, the words just won't stop. He's absurd, he's a clown.

Did you see his performance at the CDC earlier this week? What was the "emotional appeal" of “As of right now and yesterday, anybody that needs a test [can have one], that’s the important thing, and the tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect.” The emotional impact I feel is one being in the presence of someone who's relentless self-promotion shines a spotlight on his insecurity. I feel like we should be talking about medical facts and wtf does his letter his call, have to do with fuckall?

He also talked about how his uncle was a super genius and that that's probably why all the doctors at the CDC asked him in surprise about how he knows so much about this?!?!? Here's a quote, so I'm not just putting words in his mouth. “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it. Every one of these doctors say, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should’ve done that instead of running for president.” Emotional impact: shock, fear, jesus take the wheel, this is the sound of someone who can't stop boasting.

His comments are absurd on their face. This is not the time for absurdity, he already rsvp'ed "no" to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. That's where he should be clowning and self deprecating. Right now, he's on the fucking job. But he's not working.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

snip--
(What's worse is, post-modernism then suggests that everyone's truth is true, because everything is relative, and then we wind up in a hole that deeper than we dug.)

Originally Posted by BigV

Trump is the victim (this time) of "post-modernism"?
--snip

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I cannot fathom how you might have gotten this conclusion out of my post.

I am not familiar with "post-modernism", but it's clear that by your description, it's kind of bullshit. And Kellyanne Conway deserves credit in my mind for flinging it into our public discourse when she talked about "alternative facts". Her talk then was bullshit. The idea of "alternative facts" is bullshit. A fact is just one thing, if it's more than one thing, it's not a fact.

...


pausing for casuistry


....

Ok, we good?

UT, you're an apologist for President Trump, free country, takes all types, agree to disagree, etc etc. I hold no animus toward you. I consider you a friend. But when you float the idea that truth and facts and words are more malleable and less concrete than back in the pre-modernist day, you give the reader, and maybe yourself, some kind of cover, a fig leaf to cover President Trump's shame. The shame is there, even if you cover your ears and eyes with the fig leaf. Lord knows the aren't enough fig leaves in the world to cover his absurdity.

[Undertoad]

Well that's the biggest problem with the Trump Presidency - foreign policy works along a different game theory than the game theory he uses. The techniques that worked being a Manhattan real estate bro, also worked on television audiences, and on the electorate. What's needed on the world stage is significantly different, I think.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Putin needs a cold war, an enemy he can blame for any unpopular moves and shortages at home.
Also to convince as many leaders between him and the Mediterranean as possible that he is from their hood, and will always be close by to be their savior not us. He can coerce them into thinking my friend's enemy is my enemy, when Trump blusters.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Putin needs a cold war, an enemy he can blame for any unpopular moves and shortages at home.
Also to convince as many leaders between him and the Mediterranean as possible that he is from their hood, and will always be close by to be their savior not us. He can coerce them into thinking my friend's enemy is my enemy, when Trump blusters.

[Undertoad]

How about President Trump's recent, teleprompted address from the Oval Office.

Yeah, how about that? I absolutely knew you'd ask about that.

It was a written, teleprompted speech and is therefore entirely appropriate for parsing the shit out of.

What I was objecting to earlier was parsing the shit out of conversational, colloquial speech and even jokes.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It was a written, teleprompted speech and is therefore entirely appropriate for parsing the shit out of.

So why did he get so many things wrong? He said trade between Europe and American would halt. Then adults from his administration corrected that.

He said all passenger travel between Europe and America would halt. Then adults from his administration said that would not apply to American citizens.

He could not even be honest when reading from a teleprompter?

He ignored a million+ missing test kits. And then later said (a direct quote when pressed by an NBC reporter) that he would not take responsibility for that. What adult does not see a glaring irresponsible mental state?

Eventually one must admit that this president lies daily. Since that is what he did routinely even 30 years ago - as so often reported in NYC local news. We are not talking about a president who works for America, American allies, or the advancement of mankind. His entire life has only been about advancing The Don at the expense of all others. That was obvious even decades ago.

He can murder someone on Fifth Ave and still get elected. He knows how easily some can be brainwashed. That was him even saying so.

He cannot take responsibility. And said so. Meanwhile Truman said "the buck stops here". Where is here? Extremists do not hear - or understand.

Responsibility must lie on those evil Mexican, immigrants, or slanted eye people who are American allies. We should blame them. Since hate can get a president reelected.

No fight. Only facts. Same facts said Fukushima nuclear reactors had melted down. Which was also denied by ignoring facts. Show me one fact that says Trump is presidential material. Clearly not a fight. Facts that an adult would discuss using logic from a pre-frontal cortex.

UT, others requested facts to support your beliefs. Post them and not just empty denials. Two glaring lies cited in a first two paragraphs. Please explain why that is a responsible leader. Would Lincoln have lied like that?

I hear of legislation in Congress to print a $101 counterfeit dollar bill with Trump's picture on it. To cut costs, he intends to have them printed by his good friend Kim of N Korea. It that true or another rumor promoted by his swampland supporters?

[BigV]

Right.

Like the CDC presser. Your thoughts are welcome.

Not to mention the fact that he murdered the words in the Oval Office presentation.

[Undertoad]

I am not familiar with "post-modernism"

No shit

UT, you're an apologist for President Trump

You don't actually get me at all. It's fine.

[BigV]

like I said

free country, takes all types, agree to disagree, etc etc.

Should I not be trying to parse your words and look for the emotional appeal instead to gain understanding?

Help a brother out, eh?

edited to add:

anyone who tries to defend or justify or explain President Trump's straight-up bizarre remarks has been dealt a shit hand. He is not living up to my standards for performance in the office, he's not even living up to my standards for communicating in English. My standards. But his words affect more than just me. If it wasn't so serious, it'd be comedy.

[Undertoad]

You're looking for a fight and I'm so not interested in that.