Social Obligations & Immunization

[piercehawkeye45]

Very interesting topic Vivant.

After thinking about this for a while and laying out the pros and cons I can say without a doubt that refusing to give children immunizations for diseases would spell certain disaster for whatever society that tries it.

For the pros, I can only think of two good ones. Population reduction and a rise of fitness of the human population against certain diseases.

For the cons, I can think of many more that tend not only to affect individual families, but the society as a whole. First of all, it will drastically affect individual families. How many parents would be willing to take the risk of their child dying to slightly help society in a way they can not see the effects? That type of sacrifice is unheard of, especially in societies that are naturally resistant to sacrifice, the US middle and upper class for example. Our society would be just as likely to face the effects of overpopulation than sacrifice their greatest love. The priorities of our culture just won't be able to handle it. The only way this type of practice could be implemented would be by force, which would be met with fierce resistance that would put the whole nation in danger of violent revolt.

The society aspects scare me just as much. One of the biggest changes in Western culture occurred in the early 1900s when families and society went from expecting a large number of their children dying early to expecting all of their children to live longer than their parents. If this practice did take place, what would be the consequences of our culture changing back to to a mindset where we expect many of our children to die? I mean seriously, I have seen many times how my high school has handled a single death of a classmate, what would happen if five classmates started dying a year, ten, twenty? How would the mindset of our children be changed? It would not only affect the dying children but everyone around him or her. How would that affect our society and aspirations?

Second, we would most likely revert back to a strong patriarchal society. Since a family can expect all of their children to survive childbirth and grow to be healthy adults, a mother only has to give childbirth only a few times in her lifetime. When we go back to a large number of children dying, the number of childbirths per woman will rise in order to maintain a stable population. That means women, especially married women, will start being expected to be at home more and the solidifying of gender roles will arise again. Not to mention the number of woman dying in childbirth will rise, changing another mindset of our culture.

With the number of women leaving their jobs because of childbirth, how will that affect our economy? Who will take their jobs?



Weighing the pros and cons, I will definitely say that refusing to vaccinate children would be devastating for our society and the only way you could justify it morally would to say that the effects of overpopulation would be worse than the consequences shown.

Keep in mind that this is not the only way to limit a population, and even though it would be more brutal and worse in the short term effects, outright infanticide would be better in the bigger picture than this to curb overpopulation. It is a good thought but I think a massive backfire would be inevitable and there are other ways to curb overpopulation and as long as we have vaccinations, raising the fitness of our population would never be worth it.

[DanaC]

Because of the recent scares in the UK, linking MMR to Autism (a link which has now been discredited), growing numbers of parents have been refusing to immunise their children with the MMR vaccine. The result is that over the last two or three years recorded rates of measles have gone up noticably. Last year we had our first measles death for about fifteen years.

From the BBC News site:

Health experts are issuing a warning about measles after an unexpectedly high number of cases this summer.
Parents are being urged to make sure their children have had both doses of the jab against measles, mumps and rubella before the return to school.

The Health Protection Agency has recorded 480 cases of measles this year - and more samples are arriving each day, with about half testing positive.

Doctors and HPA experts said they were concerned about the number of cases.

HPA immunisation expert Dr Mary Ramsay said: "We've been very worried because the cases have stayed up over the summer holidays.

.....................Ollie Mullen is one of this summer's measles statistics. Aged eight months, he was too young for vaccination.

His mother, Anna-Maria, was astonished to find that her youngest son's runny nose, temperature and rash were symptoms of a serious disease.

She said: "I feel quite shocked and disappointed that people still haven't got their children vaccinated against measles - and also that I was walking around with an infectious child.

"It's a really horrible illness. Ollie was very miserable and quite lethargic for a week. I would say definitely do get your children immunised."

The latest figures on measles in Britain show high numbers in the east and south-east of England, Yorkshire and Humberside and London.

Doctors' surgeries at Hackney in the east of the capital are feeling the consequences of the backlash against vaccination.



There have been more than 120 measles cases in the borough in the past three months - most of them in children aged under five who have not been immunised.

Dr Michael Fitzpatrick is a GP in Hackney who is vehement about the need for parents to get behind MMR.

"I am angry that the effect of this campaign against the MMR vaccine has ended up in outbreaks of measles like this," he said.

....................................

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6970525.stm

[monster]

Lost of refusal to vaccinate here, two cases of measles this month......

but I'm still on the fence about vaccinations against diseases which are non-fatal to the majority. How's that for taking a position?

My kids are vaccinated against most stuff. I didn't want them to get the chicken pox shot, but it was included on the list of vaccinations required for their greencards, so... They do not get a flu shot, I do. They've never had flu, I haven't had flu for 10 years.... (what's the betting that this is our lucky year..... )

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by monster

but I'm still on the fence about vaccinations against diseases which are non-fatal to the majority.

Such as?

Take the Chickenpox. Kids get it and it is most always self limiting. When are you contagious from the Chickenpox?

Chickenpox is highly infectious and spreads from person to person by direct contact or through the air from an infected person’s coughing or sneezing or from aerosolization of virus from skin lesions. A person with chickenpox is contagious 1-2 days before the rash appears and until all blisters have formed scabs. It takes from 10-21 days after exposure for someone to develop chickenpox.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/aci...nza1-fiore.pdf

Before licensure of the varicella vaccine in 1995, each year there were about four million cases of varicella, 13,500 hospitalizations and 150 deaths.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/news/new...006/200607.htm

But have that same asymptomatic child around a pregnant woman or an adult who has never had it and the consequences can be devestating.

How many people die from the flu every year?

As of June 2007, there have been pediatric deaths from 2006-2007.

19,000 people died each year from Influenza between 1976 and 1990. Since 1990 that number has increased to 36,000 deaths per year.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...nloads/flu.pdf

[monster]

(I'd be more inclined to get them a flu shot if I could see more evidence of it's effectiveness, but anecdotally it seems that many people who get the shot still get the flu, and I've heard from several friends in the biz that the model used for predicting the flu strains prevalent each year is off-kilter, so the vaccines are only against a few of the more long-lingering strains.)

I do subscribe to the idea that one should consider the impact on society as a whole when considering whether to vaccinate, but I'm always going to put my kids first, and I'm really wary of injecting all sorts of nasties into the body just in case they help.

People could do more good by staying at home when they're sick.

[DanaC]

In terms of the MMR vaccines, I'd be inclined to give it a great deal of thought and do a lot of research prior to making a decision. I do believe that one has to take into account the bigger picture: given that my (fictitious) child would be vulnerable up to the point of completing vaccination, I would hope that other children they might come into contact with would be vaccinated and free of these infectious diseases. The reverse of that argument is that should I choose not to vaccinate my child against the disease, they may well develop a natural immunity, but in doing so they may be infectious themselves at some point when they come into contact with an unimmunised child.

The need for research, however, is necessary. When I was little I was given the first part of the vaccination, and my ordinary childhood excema exploded into one of the worst cases the specialist had ever seen, pretty much overnight. Mum is convinced, and some of the doctors suspected, that the vaccine was responsible. I didn't have the second vaccination, nor did I have the later vaccinations and boosters.

A few years ago I had the flu vaccine for the first time. That winter I got one of the worst doses of flu I ever had. That said, my brother and my partner had flu around the same time and both were far worse than me, and ended up with temperatures so high they were delirious. So...I don't know if the flu I caght would have been worse had my body not already been exposed to it...if indeed it was a strain covered by the vaccine. Or, the flu vaccine may have had no bearing whatsoever.

Another thing to consider when deciding whether or not to go with the flu vaccine, particulary with regard to children, is the presence of chicken albumen in the vaccine. Egg is one of the most common foods that children develop sensitivity to, so it's worth checking that out with the doctor before making a decision on flu vaccines.

[monster]

School email just announced now up to 4 cases of measles in two schools, but all related.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by monster

I didn't want them to get the chicken pox shot, but it was included on the list of vaccinations required for their greencards, so...

Ultimately I let my kid get the chicken pox shot too, because I figured that if everyone else in his school was immunized, there'd be nowhere for him to catch it from and get natural immunity until he was older and it was more dangerous.

[Cloud]

We've had measles here, too, and they are requiring all kids going into middle school to get them.

Since I live on the US/Mexico border, we have a lot of public health issues not found elswehere. Things like TB make appearances here more than other places.

[binky]

Originally Posted by Cloud

We've had measles here, too, and they are requiring all kids going into middle school to get them.

Since I live on the US/Mexico border, we have a lot of public health issues not found elswehere. Things like TB make appearances here more than other places.

I know what you mean cloud, California here and I work at one of my girl's schools, I've been tested for TB twice(employment requirement) and have been really nervous both times, due to the number of hispanic and actual Mexican children here

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Were Native Americans "less fit"? I don't think so.

Genetically speaking, yes they were. Being fit means having whatever it takes to survive in the environment you find yourself in. That environment may change, and the definition of who is fittest may change because of it. The Native Americans also gave Europeans quite a few nasty diseases they'd never encountered before either... but they weren't as deadly to the Europeans as the European diseases were to the Native Americans.

[Aliantha]

The herd is much larger than I thought. I really thought there would have been at least a couple of others prepared to support the case presented in the original post of this thread.

My faith in society is restored somewhat.

[Sundae]

Dad went for his flu vaccine this morning. I think since he was rushed into hospital earlier this year he figures he should take all the help he can get.

Mum says she was offered it every year until she retired (last year) but refused it each time. She saw too many people ill immediately afterwards. I didn't question why Dad was having it in that case, it would probably have started her off on how stubborn he is.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Dad went for his flu vaccine this morning. I think since he was rushed into hospital earlier this year he figures he should take all the help he can get.

Mum says she was offered it every year until she retired (last year) but refused it each time. She saw too many people ill immediately afterwards. I didn't question why Dad was having it in that case, it would probably have started her off on how stubborn he is.

The point I was trying to make is that most of us view the Flu as nothing more than a bother for about a week or 10 days, when in fact many people die from the common flu each year.

[Sundae]

I wasn't agreeing or diagreeing Merc, it was just an anecdote.