The Angry White Man - Page 4

DanaC · 02-26-2008, 05:48 PM

It ain't about secretaries versus managers. Those are not on a par with each other. It's about jobs which are on a par in terms of training and demand, but which are gendered male or female traditionally.

I also have to skedaddle ( a word that isn't used nearly enough in my opinion :P) Ciao for now you capitalist pig:P

DanaC · 02-26-2008, 05:48 PM

Merc I don't argue that there's been no progress. Just that we haven't reached parity yet.

Clodfobble · 02-26-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

It's about jobs which are on a par in terms of training and demand, but which are gendered male or female traditionally.

The one example pair you've given so far is schoolteacher versus engineer, citing the fact that they require the same amount of schooling. Just because the standard for a college bachelor's degree is four years does not mean that they are learning the same things in those four years, or that any person could equally decide to earn either degree. Engineers are generally more intelligent and more skilled than schoolteachers. (Quite a few of my teachers were downright stupid, in fact.)

Do you have any other examples of jobs which are truly on par with each other?

Aliantha · 02-26-2008, 07:06 PM

OK, I'd refute the fact that engineers are generally more intelligent than school teachers. lol

I've met quite a few and many of them are very stupid. Not to mention afflicted with tunnel vision. Oh, and did I say stupid?

TheMercenary · 02-26-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

The one example pair you've given so far is schoolteacher versus engineer, citing the fact that they require the same amount of schooling. Just because the standard for a college bachelor's degree is four years does not mean that they are learning the same things in those four years, or that any person could equally decide to earn either degree. Engineers are generally more intelligent and more skilled than schoolteachers. (Quite a few of my teachers were downright stupid, in fact.)

Do you have any other examples of jobs which are truly on par with each other?

There is pay parity in health care jobs. There is complete parity in all government jobs, at both the state and federal level. There is complete parity in the military. That is a whole lot of folks. There is complete parity in most entry level jobs in both the public and private sectors. The biggest bitches and moans are for the top jobs that are few and far between.

DanaC · 02-26-2008, 07:13 PM

Science and technology associate professionals versus health and social welfare associate professionals. The former are predominately male the latter female. Skilled agricultural fields versus skilled textiles. Both primarily male, but with a much higher percentage of females in textiles.

DanaC · 02-26-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

There is pay parity in health care jobs. There is complete parity in all government jobs, at both the state and federal level. There is complete parity in the military. That is a whole lot of folks. There is complete parity in most entry level jobs in both the public and private sectors. The biggest bitches and moans are for the top jobs that are few and far between.

Looking at graduates, most female graduates will earn between 20 and 25% less than their male counterpartds even if they go into the same industry. In the UK female graduates can expect to earn approx. 17.5% less than their male counterparts. Why this is is difficult to answer and combines a number of factors both economic, societal and biological. The fact remains that males on average earn more than females. Count it how you like, that makes men the economically more powerful sex.

Aliantha · 02-26-2008, 07:16 PM

Most girls don't want to be farmers. Some do, but there's a far greater number or men who actually want to be farmers than women.

DanaC · 02-26-2008, 07:19 PM

As I say a number of factors are involved including the choices which are made at an individual level regarding careers. Whatever causes it, it remains the case that whilst progress has been made, parity has not been reached at a societal level.

[eta] and on that note I really am going to bed where I intend that I and sleep will reach parity :P

Aliantha · 02-26-2008, 07:22 PM

I don't think men alone can be blamed for that. Women on an individual basis can either be happy with their lot or they can fight against what they have.

If you don't like what you're being paid, then do something about it. Don't sit around and moan that society isn't fair.

I've never done a job where men who were equal to me were being paid more. In fact, in most cases, I've been paid more because I was prepared to argue my case and prove that I was worth more.

Some things need to be changed on an individual basis.

TheMercenary · 02-26-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I don't think men alone can be blamed for that. Women on an individual basis can either be happy with their lot or they can fight against what they have.

If you don't like what you're being paid, then do something about it. Don't sit around and moan that society isn't fair.

I've never done a job where men who were equal to me were being paid more. In fact, in most cases, I've been paid more because I was prepared to argue my case and prove that I was worth more.

Some things need to be changed on an individual basis.

Insightful.

DanaC · 02-26-2008, 07:29 PM

Feck....I really was going to bed, why did I automatically click the New Posts button?

This isn't about blaming men. I do not hold men resonsible for this situation. Our society (and the market) has evolved into what it is because of a complex set of factors. There is no conspiracy by men to keep women barefoot, pregnant and underpaid. Even when male union workers were fighting to keep women out of their trades in the late-eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, women were also arguing that case. This isn't about men doing something to women, this about society having evolved in a particular way and leading to a situation where one sex is more economically powerful than the other. Both sexes have played their part (and continue to play their parts) in that evolution. Both sexes will play their part in how society continues to evolve.

Aliantha · 02-26-2008, 07:39 PM

I understand that Dana, but in the case of this argument in general, men are viewed as the root cause of the problem. Men hold the power so men get to decide who gets paid how much.

I don't necessarily agree that women should be paid equally for jobs that are different but take the same amount of time to learn how to do. In some cases this is true but not in all. I happen to think teachers in general are definitely underpaid for the services they provide to our society, however, I don't agree that all teachers should be paid the same. Some teachers are better than others and should be rewarded for that whether they're male or female.

To me, it's about paying people what they're worth. Not paying people because they happen to do a particular job, or because they happen to have a dick or not. I happen to think society in general is well on the way to achieving this parity. At least, that's how it appears to be in Australia.

TheMercenary · 02-26-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Not paying people because they happen to do a particular job, or because they happen to have a dick or not..

Now wait one minute there missy!

Aliantha · 02-26-2008, 07:48 PM

What should I be waiting for?

02-26-2008, 07:06 PM	#49
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	OK, I'd refute the fact that engineers are generally more intelligent than school teachers. lol I've met quite a few and many of them are very stupid. Not to mention afflicted with tunnel vision. Oh, and did I say stupid? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-26-2008, 07:16 PM	#53
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Most girls don't want to be farmers. Some do, but there's a far greater number or men who actually want to be farmers than women. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-26-2008, 07:22 PM	#55
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I don't think men alone can be blamed for that. Women on an individual basis can either be happy with their lot or they can fight against what they have. If you don't like what you're being paid, then do something about it. Don't sit around and moan that society isn't fair. I've never done a job where men who were equal to me were being paid more. In fact, in most cases, I've been paid more because I was prepared to argue my case and prove that I was worth more. Some things need to be changed on an individual basis. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-26-2008, 07:39 PM	#58
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I understand that Dana, but in the case of this argument in general, men are viewed as the root cause of the problem. Men hold the power so men get to decide who gets paid how much. I don't necessarily agree that women should be paid equally for jobs that are different but take the same amount of time to learn how to do. In some cases this is true but not in all. I happen to think teachers in general are definitely underpaid for the services they provide to our society, however, I don't agree that all teachers should be paid the same. Some teachers are better than others and should be rewarded for that whether they're male or female. To me, it's about paying people what they're worth. Not paying people because they happen to do a particular job, or because they happen to have a dick or not. I happen to think society in general is well on the way to achieving this parity. At least, that's how it appears to be in Australia. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-26-2008, 07:48 PM	#60
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	What should I be waiting for? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-26-2008, 05:48 PM	#46
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	It ain't about secretaries versus managers. Those are not on a par with each other. It's about jobs which are on a par in terms of training and demand, but which are gendered male or female traditionally. I also have to skedaddle ( a word that isn't used nearly enough in my opinion :P) Ciao for now you capitalist pig:P

02-26-2008, 07:13 PM	#51
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Science and technology associate professionals versus health and social welfare associate professionals. The former are predominately male the latter female. Skilled agricultural fields versus skilled textiles. Both primarily male, but with a much higher percentage of females in textiles.

02-26-2008, 07:19 PM	#54
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	As I say a number of factors are involved including the choices which are made at an individual level regarding careers. Whatever causes it, it remains the case that whilst progress has been made, parity has not been reached at a societal level. [eta] and on that note I really am going to bed where I intend that I and sleep will reach parity :P

02-26-2008, 07:29 PM	#57
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Feck....I really was going to bed, why did I automatically click the New Posts button? This isn't about blaming men. I do not hold men resonsible for this situation. Our society (and the market) has evolved into what it is because of a complex set of factors. There is no conspiracy by men to keep women barefoot, pregnant and underpaid. Even when male union workers were fighting to keep women out of their trades in the late-eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, women were also arguing that case. This isn't about men doing something to women, this about society having evolved in a particular way and leading to a situation where one sex is more economically powerful than the other. Both sexes have played their part (and continue to play their parts) in that evolution. Both sexes will play their part in how society continues to evolve.

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