Alfie - 13 year old Dad

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by glatt

But does the poverty cause the social attitudes, or do the attitudes cause the poverty?

I'm inclined to think that the economic pressures came first. The areas I was talking about follow a farly common pattern for the old industrial North: textile town, strong working-class culture, loses its manufacturing during the 80s and 90s. The town becomes effectively a dormitory town (in our case for Leeds and Bradford) and service industry base, the old textile communities adapt or die. In the case of the two areas mentioned, they died. As the town struggled with high unemployment in the 90s, areas of high depreivation began to form. The old social structures that came with the working-class culture of old have dissolved in those parts of town, but not been replaced by anything. Those areas become the cheap and nasty areas which is where the poorer families end up.

Economic and social collapse in some areas has left a hell of a legacy. It is all encompassing. The schools expect less of their pupils, parents have lower expectations of their children. Family breakdown, exacerbated by unemployment, debt etc, leaves kids without the parenting and support they need. They then become more likely to parent in the same way (without some kind of intervention). The sense of dislocation amongst some of these communities is palpable.

[Pie]

Yes.

[Aliantha]

There are young teenage parents all over the world. We have them here although I don't know of any personally, but they are out there. When I was in high school one of the girls got knocked up at 16 and spent her last year at school as a social outcast just about. I had no idea what to make of it at that time. I was pretty naive about sex back then. We heard about other girls who'd gotten pregnant younger, but then they mysteriously weren't anymore.

I came from a pretty solid middle class area as did most of the kids I went to high school with. I'm sure poverty has something to do with it, but early pregnancy is definitely not the problem of one social group. At least not here.

[Pie]

Think he meant "Rs" = "Republicans"

[classicman]

read the link Bruce. It was the author I was referring to not her. I then made the ASSUMPTION that Pie was lumping all R's in with evangelicals.

[classicman]

Oh and R's does equal republicans too -

[jinx]

I don't understand...

Read this book... it offers some perspective.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Redux

And the more extreme social conservative movement in the US prefer their 8 point plan for abstinence only education, including baseless scare tactics:

sexual activity outside the context of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects

What, you've never heard of Hot-dog-down-a-hallway Syndrome? It's in the DSM-IV.

bearing children out-of-wedlock is likely to have harmful consequences for the child, the child's parents, and society

I think you'll find it pretty hard to argue with this one as it's written. Single parents have a harder life, their kids have a harder life, and society is asked to support one or both of them more often than married couples. I can't imagine anyone sanely arguing that having unplanned babies is a fine idea. Obviously there can be plenty of debate as to the best way to prevent unplanned pregnancies, but you really can't call the above statement a baseless scare tactic.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What, you've never heard of Hot-dog-down-a-hallway Syndrome? It's in the DSM-IV.

I think you'll find it pretty hard to argue with this one as it's written. Single parents have a harder life, their kids have a harder life, and society is asked to support one or both of them more often than married couples. I can't imagine anyone sanely arguing that having unplanned babies is a fine idea. Obviously there can be plenty of debate as to the best way to prevent unplanned pregnancies, but you really can't call the above statement a baseless scare tactic.

sexual activity outside the context of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects

bearing children out-of-wedlock is likely to have harmful consequences for the child, the child's parents, and society

I would have no argument if it were described as "possible" rather than "likely"....there is no study that I have seen that supports the conclusion that harmful psychological and physical effects or harmful consequences for the child, the child's parents, and society are "likely"....to describe it in that manner, IMO, is a scare tactic.

[Aliantha]

I don't think having children out of wedlock necessarily means the child is that of a single parent.

I have two kids out of wedlock but I wasn't a single parent till my relationship failed. At the time they were concieved I never expected to be a single parent ever.

Shit happens.

[Pie]

True, but the "choice" in "pro-choice" really ought to be this:

The active choice to conceive a child in the first place.

Until we've worked out the medical, societal and ethical issues that surround blocking conception itself, everything else will be less than optimal.

[Sundae]

Despite a rather shiny liberal veneer, I do have a deeply conservative heart.
I genuinely believe that the best possible upbringing for a child results from having two adults living in the same home. Ideally one male and one female. Preferably the child's biologicial parents or their replacement (guardian, adoptive parents of foster carers) simply to omit two-household complications.

A bad person as a parent is by no means preferable to only one of course.

Then again, I believe 13 year old girls should get 3 year contraceptive implants (it's illegal to have sex before 16 anyway).
And that if children can't be taught to make a joyful noise then they are better off seen and not heard.
Oh and that once someone reaches a weight which tips them over the line into obesity, they should be sent to some sort of Fat Camp. Or at least have the option of it. Obesity is a killer, and people slip into it, burger by burger. Or pint by pint in my case.
I believe that public trasnport and emergency services should have the right to shunt illegally parked cars out of the way.
And that children truanting on a regular basis should be put to use cleaning the streets and parks - they might have something to say to litterers after a while. With the option to go back to school the minute they request it of course - it will teach them that school isn't hard work compared to real life.

I blame my reactionary views on my parents of course

[Aliantha]

I can't imagine how I'd feel if Aden became a father this year. He turns 13 in 6 months. As far as I know, he's maybe pecked a couple of girls on the lips, but I don't think there's been any deep kissing even, let alone heavy petting, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad. I hope he can save that sort of thing for at least another couple of years if not 3 or 4.

I guess we have all the baby infrastructure at home, so if he did somehow become a father young we'd be able to help him out, but it'd really change the structure of our family. For one thing, I think it would really put a strain on the bond between Aden and Mav which is something I'd hate to see happen.

Ultimately I can't really control that situation if it ever arises, but I can try and educate the kids and hopefully they'll somehow find the wisdom to not make a bad decision in that regard.

[classicman]

Are you implying that I did that?????
The title of the article clearly states what I previously posted. To disconnect from that is, in my opinion, partisan and dishonest.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by classicman

Are you implying that I did that?????

No, I didn't say you did that, I said the author (Talbot) did that.

The title of the article clearly states what I previously posted. To disconnect from that is, in my opinion, partisan and dishonest.

Did you read what I wrote?