Fort Hood stuff is happening!

[Cloud]

it's clear to me that WE also bear some culpability in this guy's meltdown. He may have gone off the deep end, but part of the stressors (reportedly) were the bigotry, overt and subtle, that he experienced as a Muslim.

He is American, we are American, and there should no place in America for religious intolerance. I may not be a fan of organized religion, but I absolutely support the right of US citizens to worship as they please.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Cloud

I've come to the conclusion that the evil that has been done in religions' name outweighs the good. It may be a narrow belief, but it's mine.

Religion is a relationship between you and your god. Religious institutions are only consultants. Organizations that can advise and assist.

The minute a religious organization says you will be damned if you do not do what we say, then that religious organization is corrupt. The minute any religion imposes their beliefs on anyone else, that religion is corrupt. America was founded by groups fleeing religious tyranny. And yet we still have even in America religions that would force on others their beliefs - as if America was supposed to be a Christian nation or a nation formed in the graces of god.

Once the Catholic Church would not impose their teachings on the US government. Now the pope orders Catholic law makers to impose church doctrine in American laws. Therefore we have a serious problem. American principles are under attack from the Catholic Church (and other religions).

What his religion is should never need be discussed. It is being discussed because we have a problem - even with his peers.

[ZenGum]

A more serious failing, in my opinion, is that this chap was showing warning signs and no one noticed. Supervisor? Regular mental health check? Friends and colleagues?

[Cloud]

in hindsight, there are always signs. I'm wondering about his reported desire to leave the army after 9/11. He couldn't disentangle himself in 8 years?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by glatt

My daughter went to a birthday party at the bowling center at Fort Meyer last night. As a civilian getting onto the base, they were very serious about inspecting our car. I knew they would search the car, but I wasn't expecting that level of scrutiny. I was actually a little surprised afterwards that they let us through with a wrapped present, given how closely they looked at everything else. Pleased though.

They had a nice searching station. Under a big tent with enough staff to search 4 cars at a time. The line moved fairly quickly.

Next time, don't wear your turban. :p

It's a shame that the citizenry hasn't been disarmed - then we could just genocide their asses.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

A more serious failing, in my opinion, is that this chap was showing warning signs and no one noticed. Supervisor? Regular mental health check? Friends and colleagues?

We Americans don't do anything ahead of time. Do something about global warming? Nah. Maintain or replace old bridges, power grids, etc.? No way, that would cost too much. Develop really effective air travel safety policies on Sept 10, 2001? That would inconvenience travellers, cost to much, and besides, we'll just invade anybody who would dare attack us (what, that would cost more?).

No, we're reactionary here in the US of A.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Cloud

it's clear to me that WE also bear some culpability in this guy's meltdown. He may have gone off the deep end, but part of the stressors (reportedly) were the bigotry, overt and subtle, that he experienced as a Muslim.

Calling shennanigans.

The guy was a shrink.

It's pretty much the cost of doing business in mental health that you will be insulted and berated through most of your day. You either find a way of dealing with it that doesn't involve shooting people (or yourself) or you find another field.

He is American, we are American, and there should no place in America for religious intolerance. I may not be a fan of organized religion, but I absolutely support the right of US citizens to worship as they please.

Dr. Hasan did not self-identify as an American.

While he has the right to worship as he pleases, he does not have the right to follow religious tenets such as:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Cloud

it's clear to me that WE also bear some culpability in this guy's meltdown. He may have gone off the deep end, but part of the stressors (reportedly) were the bigotry, overt and subtle, that he experienced as a Muslim.

Assumption. I can never accept that we are responsible for others stupid decisions. It comes down to personal responsibility.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Assumption. I can never accept that we are responsible for others stupid decisions. It comes down to personal responsibility.

That's right. If I poke you in the eye with a stick, and you hit me, YOU are the one who is going to jail for battery.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

That's right. If I poke you in the eye with a stick, and you hit me, YOU are the one who is going to jail for battery.

Yea, but you will be in surgery getting your nose fixed.

And actually you would also go to jail after you got out of the hospital.

[Cloud]

of course I'm just speculating, since we really don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure he did identify as an American--at least before 9/11. After that, apparently not.

And I still think that we as a society need to do a better job in not spreading bigotry and religious intolerance.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Cloud

And I still think that we as a society need to do a better job in not spreading bigotry and religious intolerance.

Agreed. We certainly have come a long way in my lifetime.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Cloud

of course I'm just speculating, since we really don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure he did identify as an American--at least before 9/11. After that, apparently not.

I heard he was identified himself as Pakistani on some Army documents and that was considered one of the "warning signs" we're hearing about.

And I still think that we as a society need to do a better job in not spreading bigotry and religious intolerance.

Agreed

[Cloud]

I think you mean Palestinian, not Pakestani.

[classicman]

I just found this lil tidbit....

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI), the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said that he requested the CIA and other intelligence agencies brief the committee on what was known, if anything, about Hasan by the U.S. intelligence community, only to be refused.

Nice - way to go.

A fellow Army doctor who studied with Hasan, Val Finell, told ABC News, "He would frequently say he was a Muslim first and an American second. And that came out in just about everything he did at the University."

Finell said he and other Army doctors complained to superiors about Hasan's statements.

"And we questioned how somebody could take an oath of office…be an officer in the military and swear allegiance to the constitution and to defend America against all enemies, foreign and domestic and have that type of conflict," Finell told ABC News.

Link


Me too - Why the hell wasn't something done sooner?