Is there free will in heaven?

[lumberjim]

let's take it a bit farther:

perhaps the above ods are accurate. and there is a 50/50 chance that there is something after. one half chance that you DO go toward the light, which is the light at the end of the birth canal, and your next life, and one that you do NOT go toward the light, and there is no afterlife. You;re just gone.

miss your chance, and game over. this is just as valid a possibility as any other religion. And if this is the actual truth, and no one knows it, and no one teaches us, then the ods remain 50/50. if many of us knew about this, accepted and believed it, we'd be wanting to share this knowledge with those around us, right? Do we have a moral responsibility to spread the word? Are we partly responsible for these...lost souls, these "non light goers"...that we could have warned but did not?


I'll need to flesh this out a bit more, maybe write a few childrens stories about it and come up with a prophet to spread the word,( you interested, radar?) but in ...oh, I don't know...2000 years?....this could be the driving religion behind the most powerful planet in the solar system or something.

Oh, I almost forgot...we'll need a name for it.....anyone?

[mrnoodle]

.....and they say Christians are nutz.

To put the thread back on track...how much more free-will can you get? God reveals the fact that there is a hell and a heaven, and he gives us an out. We can make of it what we will. While some people get numerous chances to accept the truth of the bible, some only get one. In places where it's never been heard of, there are still civilizations that recognize the concept of one creator that they have to follow (somewhere in the bible it says that, I will look it up tomorrow if you remind me).

God says: here's the information you need to stay in good with me. Make of it what you will. See you at the second coming, bye.

The people who are so upset about the free-will nonsense won't believe the truth about God unless they are offered absolute, unarguable, verifiable scientific data that he exists. (Thus removing their choice not to believe, ironically).

[lumberjim]

the brainwashing of religion is so fundemantal and basic that even otherwise intelligent people succumb to it.

.....and they say Christians are nutz.

well, yeah. that's what I'm saying.

God says

does he have a deep voice? I've always wondered.

The people who are so upset about the free-will nonsense won't believe the truth about God unless they are offered absolute, unarguable, verifiable scientific data that he exists. (Thus removing their choice not to believe, ironically).

"the truth about god" - YOUR truth. keep it to yourself, thanks.

as for data, there is none. no way to know, so how can you say you're anymore right than i am? I'm not saying you're definatley wrong, I'm saying that you are no more right than I am. not even a little bit.

[koolhat]

What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by koolhat

What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.

the purpose of religion is control. I agree. well said.



<-----------ooooo.....12k! damn.

[Undertoad]

To the Christians: harshly questionning your beliefs is not an attack on you personally.

If you would like to see a personal attack, so you can tell the difference, that can be arranged.

[Beestie]

Is there free will in heaven? Absolutely.

For me, Heaven represents the absence of temptation. Heaven is the one place the devil can't work his mojo and since the devil is the source (although not the responsible party) of whatever separation there might be between humans and God, the absence of temptation, is, therefore, heaven (unity with God).

At least that's the presumption I operate under however ignorant it must appear to people who believe otherwise.

[Happy Monkey]

So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?

[Beestie]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?

I have no idea what would happen to Earth if Satan suddenly ceased to exist. My answer above (no pun intended - nyuk, nyuk) was for Heaven.

I'd have to think about Earth. But, my prelim guess is that Earth would be paradise-like (we're still human and so I can't rule out suffering which may preclude calling Earth paradise) if Satan (or the personificaiton of evil) stopped exerting influence on people's actions and intentions. At a minimum, I think things would be a little better than they are if and when things we all pretty much agree are evil suddenly became a thing of the past.

I guess the degree to which one might be inclined to refer to a world without temptation as paradise would have to be a function of where that person is now. A drug lord who's living large on the backs of his addicts might call the "new world" hell whereas a North Korean starving in solitary for a political "crime" might be inclined to call the new world paradise.

I think heaven's here on earth (as is hell). It is up to each of us through our use of free will to act so that there will be a little bit of heaven in our lives and those of the people around us. We can also choose to act to create hell. I don't believe in Satan. There's only foolish (or down-right sociopathic) human beings. In my life I have met many "angels" - ordinary human beings who act with kindness and compassion.

[mrnoodle]

Originally posted by lumberjim
"the truth about god" - YOUR truth. keep it to yourself, thanks.

LJ, this is what I've ranted about in other threads. Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians? Anti-christians are not about free thought, no matter what they otherwise preach. They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.

as for data, there is none. no way to know, so how can you say you're anymore right than i am? I'm not saying you're definatley wrong, I'm saying that you are no more right than I am. not even a little bit.

I say it isn't about me being right or you being right. If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.

well yeah, that's what I'm saying (re: Xtians are nuts)

If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything. Knowing what I know, it's not a gamble I'm willing to take, regardless of the immediate state of my 'faith' at any given moment.

the brainwashing of religion is so fundemantal and basic that even otherwise intelligent people succumb to it.

I haven't mentioned religion once. I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology. My beliefs are deeply held, and come from a desire to be more in touch with the world around me and with the creator of that world. Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by mrnoodle
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything.

What if Islam is correct? Then we've both lost.

[lumberjim]

Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians?

because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.

They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.

yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above

If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.

it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?

I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology.

bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.
from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"

Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.

my beliefs cannot be summed up by saying anything. maybe you're right about us having different def's of intelligence. your blinders are getting in your way.

[mrnoodle]

because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.

While I can't argue that many of us are pushy about our beliefs, we don't do it any more than any other group. The vegans don't want me to be able to go to McDonalds. The atheists don't want kids to be able to have prayer groups at school. Muslims think Jews are full of shit. Jews think Christians are full of shit. Christians think atheists are full of shit. In modern American society, however, only Christians are considered fair game for your scorn. SNL occasionally pokes light fun at Jews with Brooklyn accents, but that's it. Imagine the outrage at a Muslim version of the Church Lady.

yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above

Yes. We summarily reject one another's beliefs because they are diametrically opposed. It's the nature of the beast. However, I don't go around calling all non-Christians delusional. I just say they're wrong. Big difference in tone, dude.

it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?

They can't tell you what color the drapery is, or whether or not we have to play harps 24 hrs a day. But they can tell you about the peace they feel when they've come to grips with their own sinful nature and the relationship between themselves and God that they perceive on a very deep level.

bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.

Don't start getting personal. I don't presume to know your motives, stay away from mine unless I tell you what they are.

from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"

I was taught about God in childhood. I didn't become convinced of his existence until later. My faith doesn't need proof, but the proof I see bolsters my faith. My conversion happened as a result of trying (and failing) to live a life without meaning. I spent all my time trying to find pleasure for myself. Being a fairly decent sort, I spent money on others and tried to make them happy - but never at the expense of my own pleasure and immediate happiness. I got everything I wanted, like any spoiled brat. I was utterly miserable. Couldn't get high enough, couldn't get laid enough, couldn't even go hunting enough to kill the ache that I pretended wasn't there.

The longer I think about it, the more offended I am that you would insult my experience by saying that I'm just parroting what some preacher told me. I get that you're bitter about something, but it wasn't my fault, man. Read The Case for Christ for an example of a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and..um..fell victim to the brainwashing of hordes of mindless fable-obsessed morality zombies.

[mrnoodle]

I think it's time to set the record straight about something else. There's a little difference between my faith and my politics. The latter is influenced by the former, but I don't think government should necessarily be rooted in theology. Yah, it would be nice, from my point of view. But I think the Denver Broncos should win every football game they play, too. Let's just say I think secular government works better if it's populated by those who don't ignore the belief system of a large portion of their constituency.