Do You Own a Gun?

[Aliantha]

And if all car companies did this, it'd be great, but what standards would they set? Would they all adhere to the same rules? Would some companies exclude certain people and allow others?

Hmmmm...sounds like things like this need to be regulated.

Let's bring in the government, for the good of the people.

[Ibby]

Hey, whoa, fuck you and your stupid 'reality' bullshit.

I'm talking ideals here. The world will never, ever conform to my ideals - but y'can't blame a guy for trying.

[Aliantha]

stupid reality bullshit?

c'mon Ibram, reality is what it is. All the ideals in the world aren't going to solve problems, although nice to have.

In an ideal world, no one would need to be regulated for anything because all our knowledge about right and wrong would be intrinsic. Unfortunately, human beings decided they wanted to live like...well...humans beings instead of animals.

The problem is, not everyone got the memo.

[Aliantha]

There are a few people who I'd like to see 'break free of gravity' and 'fly off into space'.

[lumberjim]

pierce, babe.....and i say babe cuz yer like 12....


life is a natural right. you have the right to be alive. not because the government or the neighbors say so, but because you JUST DO.

is that simple enough for you to get wrapped around?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

pierce, babe.....and i say babe cuz yer like 12....


life is a natural right. you have the right to be alive. not because the government or the neighbors say so, but because you JUST DO.

is that simple enough for you to get wrapped around?

He's only a kid? Well it's all starting to make sense now. Kids always think they know everything and they don't know shit. He's only 19. He hasn't even started to learn about life yet.

[piercehawkeye45]

We only have that right because we say we do. Do other animals have this right?

In nature we see other animals killing other animals for food. This is natural. We live in a world of birth and death.

It is our pride as humans, and I'm included in this, to say that we specifically have a right to live. So we say we have a right to live. I do not disagree with this right because I want to live but you have to realize that it is humans that made this right not nature.

Nature does not care about humans anymore than it cares about a cow. We are not anymore special then them. To protect ourselves from ourselves and other animals, we created a right to live.

I agree with us having this right it is just I do not think it is a natural law.

[lumberjim]

not a natural law, no. but was that ever the argument?

all animals have the right to life. and when one animal is eaten by another, it's rights are being violated.

the point is that government is created by man to limit. it is a construct. go back in time to the first people walking around.....before there was a government. the natural rights of those people were uninhibited completely. the could do what they wanted. as radar said, limitless, infinite. it is only because we have such a complexity of realities inter-meshing that we need a government to hold it all together and prevent the chaos that unlimited rights would cause.

radar is an idealist. he's absolutely right about natural rights... I believe that the spirit of the constitution tells us that those rights are the most important element of our government. the role of our government is first to protect our rights. unfortunately, the actual real world truth is ...that this is not the America our founding fathers intended.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

all animals have the right to life. and when one animal is eaten by another, it's rights are being violated.

I just don't see the relevance when every animal has the right to live when we have to kill thousands of organisms to breathe or have to kill another animal to survive. If I don't kill the deer, my children will starve to death, violating their rights. If I kill the deer, I violate it's right. It is always a lose-lose situation.

The way nature works is if I protect my right to live, I will have to deprive another animal of its right to live.

From looking at nature from this perspective there is no evidence that nature will enforce any right of life to any animal seeing that we need to kill to live.

The only way to break free for this reality is too say humans are better than other animals which has no proof in nature as well. A tornado will kill a human just as quickly as it will kill a dog.

[lumberjim]

all run on sentences, unclear and wandering points, and bizzarre analogies and no play make piercehawkeye go crazy.

[piercehawkeye45]

You guys can't even come up with a counter-point except my grammar and age, and you are calling me immature?

I have more questions for you guys. Why would nature create a right that is intrinsically flawed? You have to kill something else to survive, you can not argue that. Why would nature create that right if you have to break it?

Another question. If we have a right to life why does everyone die? Before you laugh I know that it is usually interpreted as "no one can take your life away from you until nature does". That brings up the contradiction, why would nature make a right that nature always breaks?

[Aliantha]

Well you can't mess with the laws of nature pierce. It's part of the great circle of life. (those of you familiar with the lion king wont need any further explanation) The fact that you die has nothing to do with the rights you have when you're alive. Once you're dead you're just worm food, and I doubt worm food has any rights at all, except to be eaten.

If someone kills you then of course they've violated your right. Your right to live.

If you want to know why we all have to die, well, I'd suggest you should probably do a bit of soul searching on that one. Most people ask this question at some stage during their lives.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Well you can't mess with the laws of nature pierce. It's part of the great circle of life. (those of you familiar with the lion king wont need any further explanation) The fact that you die has nothing to do with the rights you have when you're alive. Once you're dead you're just worm food, and I doubt worm food has any rights at all, except to be eaten.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not but to become worm food you have to have your rights violated in the first place. If you do not have your rights violated then the worms starve and have their rights violated.

If you want to know why we all have to die, well, I'd suggest you should probably do a bit of soul searching on that one. Most people ask this question at some stage during their lives.

I was not getting into that, it was only an example.

[Aliantha]

Just remember also that the word 'right' has a certain conotation and it's different from one person to another.

Maybe living isn't a 'right' as such. Maybe it's just a 'state of being'. Maybe there really isn't a good answer for any of these questions.

[Radar]

You do not have the right to kill another person to survive yourself unless that person is trying to kill you. If you are in a plane crash and there's only enough food for one person to survive, you do not have a right to kill the other person.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time trying to tell an ignorant kid like you about rights, when you're too dim to even know what they are despite having it spoon fed to you dozens of times in this thread.

We have the right to life. Part of life is dying naturally (which does not include being murdered)

Life is a natural process. Not only do you not understand natural rights, you don't even understand the process of human life. I can't believe you even got into a weak school like the University of Minnesota. You're not even bright enough for community college.

Your lack of age is only partially responsible for your willful ignorance and glaring stupidity.