Kenya in Crisis

[aimeecc]

Yes, alcohol and drug addiction are choices. No one forced a bottle into their hands or a needle into their arms. And guess what? Even if you want to play the "oh pity the addicts" card, you'll be the first one to say we can't take away their rights and force them into treatment or force the mentally ill into hospitals. Double edged sword there... "Its not their fault" and "we have to help" but "we can't force them". Guess what - if we can't force them, the problem will never go away. Never. So which do you choose? I'll keep the problem just not to have them sue over 'taking away rights'. And not to mention it is a slippery slope... if you force the homeless bum into treatment, what about the struggling student, or the high powered exec?

[aimeecc]

My father had a dehabilitating stroke when I was two. His company took care of my family for 5 years while he recovered. After 5 years, my father was better - but he was never going to be at the same level he was before. The company asked my father to find another job. He bounced from job to job for 2 years, fell into depression (probably had an undiagnosed mental break down), and didn't work for the next 8 years. My mother, with absolutely no education and 8 children to care for, worked 3 jobs to keep a roof over our head and keep us fed. We moved from a nice upper-middle class home to a small 3 bedroom home in the not-so-good part of town. She delivered papers at 4 in the morning. Then she sold bags of nuts/fruits/candy/chocolates door to door for a small local company. After she came home from that, us kids restocked her van for the next day while she went to the local convienence store and worked the evening shift. My sister at 16 waited tables and gave the money she earned to my parents. Our church would occasionally give us boxes of food. They knew we were struggling, but also knew my family was proud and didn't want hand outs. I know what its like to be the poor kid in ragged hand me downs at school that gets teased (I had to wear my brothers coat - that got me laughed at), the kid that turns down birthday party invites because you know you can't afford to bring a present, the kid that doesn't join girl scouts because it takes $5 to join. I know the humiliation of waiting after church for almost everyone to leave to take the box of free food. And from all this I know if someone works hard and asks for help when they absolutely must, they can support themselves. We always had a roof over our head and food on the table. I'll donate food, but I won't donate money.

[Shawnee123]

But you got a great name out of the deal!

[aimeecc]

lol!
So, how does this go from debating about Kenya to arguing about poverty in America? I tried to get it back on track yesterday but had no luck...

[DanaC]

You walk in your shoes Aimee, and you carry with you your life experiences and the things you have witnessed. Others walk in their own shoes, and carry entirely different life experiences, not to mention genetically in-built proclavities, talents and potential areas of weakness. The fact that some people can point to their lives and say I survived, and I did ok, despite these many barriers and anchors, does not necessarily mean that some other person given a very similar set of circumstances will be able to achieve the same outcome.

I do not, for one moment, believe that most poverty is entirely, or even primarily self-inflicted. I do believe there are people who are living in poverty and distressing circumstances, whose life choices and general attitudes have put them where they are. I believe they are a minority. I think the people who manage to break the patterns and chains of poverty are the exceptions who prove the rule. And I very much do not believe we should base our approach to ameliorating poverty on the experience of the exceptions.

[Shawnee123]

You said it way better than I ever could have, DanaC.

And I do not believe that addiction is a choice. You can choose to try to come to terms with it, and do the work to overcome, but you do not choose the predisposition.

In my life are two very important people: one who has been sober 9 years...loves life and family, and is still the funniest guy I know. The other has fled the state because he doesn't want to quit drinking, and is leaving behind beautiful grandchildren and people who love him. Did he choose this? I can't believe that he would choose to give up what was once a very good life, if he wasn't in the arms of something much bigger than he can deal with.

What made the difference in these two people? If we knew that, there would be no addiction. Something, someone, something deep inside him made the former able to find the strength to achieve sobriety. His illness is not the illness of the latter one; each has his own illness that we cannot begin to comprehend because we are not them.

I thank God every day for the one who is doing great. I pray for the one who is not.

But I know they didn't choose the illness.

[aimeecc]

Dana I wholeheartedly agree that each of us views life from our own experiences. I do not believe that everyone has the strength to overcome adversity on their own. But many organizations exist to help. However, there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Welfare and aid organizations help those that are least able to cope - the familes. As Shawnee points out, 66% of homeless people have alcohol and drug problems and/or are mentally ill. Not to say we should completely abandon them, but they should receive less aid. The addicts blow away money on their addiction. Until they want to change, want to stop the addiction, providing them aid only continues the addiction. An alcoholic (homeless or successful) will deny treatment until he/she has reached the point where they can admit the problem and want to change. The mentally ill that are homeless want their freedom. And unless we take away their freedom, all the assistance we give will only continue their problem. It may seeem merciful to give them aid, but the reality is this only continues the problem. The old addage, "if you give a man a fish he eats for a night, you teach him how to fish you feed him for a lifetime" applies. If you give the addicts and mentally ill aid but don't change their behavior, the problem will not go away.
In an emergency room, triage is used so those with the most life threatening illnesses and injuries are treated first. If you go in with a broken finger, it may take 12 hours before you are seen. Go in with multiple internal injuries from a car accident, you're at the front of the line. The same sort of triage exists in the US for the poor. Collectively it has been decided those at the front of the line are the families. The rest fall by the way side. There are not enough resources to take care of every homeless person unless you cut other programs. And even if you cut other programs, would throwing money at drug addicts and mentally ill change the problem? They have to want to change.
My family did not have money for college. But my family valued education. All but one brother has a college degree of some sort by working their way through college (and depending on aid). I believe education is the key to bringing people out of poverty. And I don't believe money (loans and grants) available is understood by many students. One reason I enlisted was because my mom told me in no way would she co-sign on a student loan, and I had no clue that I could get a loan at 18 without my parents co-signing. I assumed I couldn't go to college. I also enlisted because I though ROTC meant I would be a weekend reservist... lol. But through a lot of hard work and a lot of luck, I got my education. So, to break the cycle of family poverty, the children need to be aware of what their potential is, what programs and resources are out there to help them achieve an education that will bring them out of poverty.

[aimeecc]

Shawnee - what do you propose the solution is? Do you continue to enable the addict?
I have a brother and sister who have both been through AA. My sister was an alcoholic and druggie in her early 20s (part of the whole 80s craze). One day she woke up and realized she didn't like what had become of her life. She went through AA it must be about 15 years ago. She is one of the women I admire the most. For my brother, it took 3 DUIs to wake him up. But he's been sober about 8 years now. He is completely devoted to his family now.
Addicts unfortunately have to reach that point - and that point varies from person to person - in which they wake up and say "I need to change. And I need to change today." For some people its realizing they don't like who they've become. Others its because its one too many times in jail. And some its only when they have seriously hurt or killed another. So how long to we enable them? Is it more humane to not enable them, and thus bringing them lower, and hopefully closer to their 'point' of asking for help with their addiction sooner?

[Shawnee123]

Where is the enabling you speak of? Do you mean by people giving money to homeless?

That is personal choice, to give, and was something I had not addressed. Rather, I addressed that addiction, like mental illness, cannot be solved by a "wake up and smell the coffee and get better, mister, or else."

We can all point to those who have overcome. All my life I've heard people say "So and so got out of the ghetto (substitute the words poverty, or 'the gutter', or 'out from under the bridge') and made a life, so there is no excuse for the other so and so to not do so."

The first so and so had something, someone, something inside that made the first so and so do something. I cannot judge why the second so and so is unable to do so, and would not disrespect either those who have found the way or those who haven't by pretending I know there's a magic formula and if everyone would just get with the program there would be no problem.

[TheMercenary]

So is this about Kenya in crisis, or Memphis in crisis with the homeless people?

[Shawnee123]

Hell, I don't know. I'm just typin'.

[piercehawkeye45]

America is a stratified society, no matter how much we try, there will always be people on the bottom.

I don't like generalizing off personal stories because it is such a small sample size that doesn't necessarily represent society as a whole. You probably could find just as many stories that go the other way.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

America is a stratified society, no matter how much we try, there will always be people on the bottom.

Yes. To be fair though, I will stick out my neck and say that "the bottom" is found in every country of the world - not only America. But, from your earlier post on the relativity of what constitutes "poverty" (in various societies), I think you will agree with me that the important factor is not so much that there exists a "bottom" but at what standard of living do these "bottom people" find themselves. ie. are they destitute or are they millionaires living in a country of multi-millonaires?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

Yes. To be fair though, I will stick out my neck and say that "the bottom" is found in every country of the world - not only America. But, from your earlier post on the relativity of what constitutes "poverty" (in various societies), I think you will agree with me that the important factor is not so much that there exists a "bottom" but at what standard of living do these "bottom people" find themselves. ie. are they destitute or are they millionaires living in a country of multi-millonaires?

Yes, there is a "bottom" in every society except for true far left societies, none of which exist today or for the past 300-400 years. But when it comes to it, I would rather have a lower standard of living for the lower class but a greater opportunity for class movement than a higher standard of living with very little opportunity for class movement. The United States does allow for class movement, but it is limited by social factors and education standards. In both poor white and black schools, they expectancy of moving on too college is extremely low, along with very badly funded and run schools, so it is much harder for someone in the lower class to move up than in a place where lower class public education is closer in quality to middle and upper class public education.

But going to the standard of living for the "bottom" in the United States, we do have many people living at third world standards. A lot of the people on American Indian reservations have no running water, no electricity, and live in broken trailers. So even though the majority of the poor are better off than many parts of the world, there are still a few that live in absolutely horrible living conditions. But this is caused by a combination of corruption in both the "white" and Indian power class, neither care about the average person on the reservations.

[aimeecc]

My point in this totally off subject thread was addressing the several people who were faulting the US for having poverty, and several posts in which multiple people stated more or less "if you look at other countries their poor are better off" (in response to a post that our poor have it better off). Too hard to quote everyone verbatum. Bottom line - the US government has programs and has aid organizations. We don't have a homogenous society like Japan where families take care of their own and it would bring shame on a family to have a homeless uncle. Each developed nation government tries to cope with their unique poverty issues. Sweden is different from the UK which is different from the USA. Its inaccurate to say a government better addresses poverty when there is not a common baseline to start from and compare to. An apple tree produces more apples than a pumpkin plant produces pumpkins, but are you going to insult the pumpkin plant and imply the pumpkin plant isn't doing his job?
Personal stories are a sampling of society. Everyone has their own stories. And no ones story is worth more than the next. Something can be garnered from, learned from, everyone's unique story.