"Shoes Fly, Don't Bother Me" soundtrack to Bush's (R) latest visit to Iraq

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the communist party!

[DanaC]

Damn...I have...


Actually, I haven't. But I was in the Socialist Workers Party.

[classicman]

You guys have it, me anyway, all wrong.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

But there are many out there for whom it is an ideological war and to question their agenda or the actions of the government somehow makes one unpatriotic.

I would never support that notion.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Merc and Classic aren't interested in gathering greater understanding of them. Just as they aren't interested in gaining a grater understanding of why someone might choose to commit a crime. It's not such an unusual stance. Understanding requires empathy; which can easily be confused with agreement or justification.

Oh please, you don't have a fucking clue.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

McCarthy brought back memories.

Time for a personal story

My great uncle was a victim of McCarthyism. He has been recognized as probably the greatest harmonica player of the 20th century and spent much of his life in the UK, where he performed for the royal famiily and as a backup on a couple of Procol Harem tracks.

His bio in cartoon!
http://www.procolharum.com/99/larry_adler.htm

Damm! So they never hung him? That evil Americika!

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Damm! So they never hung him? That evil Americika!

You're a bitter angry little man.

You have my sympathy.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Oh please, you don't have a fucking clue.

You're quite right. I can only come to conclusions based on what you post in the cellar. It's a two dimensional picture, but it's all I have with which to reach such conclusions.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Merc and Classic aren't interested in gathering greater understanding of them. Just as they aren't interested in gaining a grater understanding of why someone might choose to commit a crime.

Please do not confuse me with someone who is not willing nor able to listen, read, debate and gain a greater understanding of the world. You quickly lumped me into a preconceived notion of yours which I find not only offensive, but completely wrong.
kthxbai

Originally Posted by classicman

You guys have it, me anyway, all wrong.

I am still trying to figure out how suggesting that we try understand that there may be resentment in Iraq against the US, in part, because of the horrific way a few of our troops treated Iraqi civilians, can draw a conclusion from you that:

"(my)opinion of the US soldier is as shitty and INCORRECT as theirs."

when I made it clear that it was not my opinon....it was suggestion that we try to understand their opinion

followed by the emotional:

"Well here is a hearty FUCK YOU to you!

"....will criticize and degrade the mean and women of our armed services????"

Who did I degrade other than the few specifically refered to as convicted or raping and murdering Iraqi women and abusing Iraqi prisonsers.

You got some 'splainin to do, dude or I would suggest the reaction to your post was appropriate.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by classicman

Please do not confuse me with someone who is not willing nor able to listen, read, debate and gain a greater understanding of the world. You quickly lumped me into a preconceived notion of yours which I find not only offensive, but completely wrong.
kthxbai

I am prepared to accept I may be wrong. I certainly don't think you are incapable of listening or gaining a greater understanding of the world. I do get the distinct impression you have no wish to gain a greater understanding of why someone might hate Bush enough to throw a shoe at him and why others may feel the same way and consider him a hero. In the thread about paedophilia you said you don't care why someone is like that (whether they are sick, victims of previous abuse, just made that way).

Someone suggests that there may be a reason for these people to feel strong antagonism to America and points out that (as in any war) some of them may have witnessed and been victims of cruelty and violence at the hands of soldiers, in this case US soldiers, and you shout down his throat about his view of US soldiers: as if he believed them all to be rapists and murderers.

I based my assumption about you on what appears to be an unwillingness to engage in understanding and empathy in these two very difficult areas.

I apologise if that offends you. But I only have the words you type from which to draw conclusions.

Originally Posted by classicman

You quickly lumped me into a preconceived notion of yours which I find not only offensive, but completely wrong.

Looking back on the exchange, I should not have made light of it and it certainly did not contribute to any further productive discussion with those of opposing views for which I apologize.

I simply should have responded by saying that I found your characterization of my opinion of the troops to be offensive and completely wrong...and the expletive to be offensive and unworthy of response.

[classicman]

Redux - I read your post as written not as you meant it. I thought we covered that in the explanation you gave previously. I apologize for what I "said" publicly. I thought - well you already know what I thought. - ANYWAY....

Dana, When it comes to "sex with children" and the attitude that "positive childhood sexual experiences with adults do occur" You are correct, I am not interested.

When it comes to other cultural beliefs, attitudes and political systems... that is a whole different discussion. If I wasn't interested in other thoughts or ideals or the discussion of these, why the hell would I be here on such a liberal-slanted site? Since you don't get it, I'll tell you - I realize that I am in the minority here with respect to my political views. One very important reason that I am here is to listen to, read, share and exchange differing views. Sheesh! You are such a manc tart!

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

Fuck them all - every one. . . Let them eat sand.

To me, you seem like the type who would offer a reward to someone who threw their shoe at Qadafi or Ahmadinejad. You might even throw your shoe at one of them yourself. Am I mistaken?

Classic...thank you for your response.

Now I would like to know if you think it matters how citizens of other countries perceive the US as a nation and the president as a world leader?

While it is not the primary role of the president to play to the world stage and world public opinion, IMO, the perception is important and impacts us at every level....from anti-terrorism efforts to trade negotiations to tourism to the perception of US troops stationed around the world.

Look at a recent Pew poll on global attitudes about the US (and please dont go for the Merc cop-out on polls).

I would hope the results would give you pause for thought:

The image of the United States has improved markedly in most parts of the world, reflecting global confidence in Barack Obama. In many countries opinions of the United States are now about as positive as they were at the beginning of the decade before George W. Bush took office. Improvements in the U.S. image have been most pronounced in Western Europe, where favorable ratings for both the nation and the American people have soared....

....Signs of improvement in views of America are seen even in some predominantly Muslim countries that held overwhelmingly negative views of the United States in the Bush years. The most notable increase occurred in Indonesia, where people are well aware of Obama's family ties to the country and where favorable ratings of the U.S. nearly doubled this year.

However for the most part, opinions of the U.S. among Muslims in the Middle East remain largely unfavorable, despite some positive movement in the numbers in Jordan and Egypt. Animosity toward the U.S., however, continues to run deep and unabated in Turkey, the Palestinian territories and Pakistan.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1289/glo...-america-image

Even more striking is the perception and confidence of the US president as a world leader:

Does it matter to you what others outside the US think about us?

Could it be that these drastically more positive perceptions just might be in the US best interest..without compromising our own national interests in any way? Particularly in the regions of the world where we might face the greatest threat.

Beyond the general perceptions, look at it from the perspective of another discussion here, in terms of Iran (even though Iran is not included in the poll). Some dont see the value of one last attempt to negotiate with Iran and I assume would prefer a more belligerent US position. Is that more in our interest?

When did it become a bad thing to being liked AND respected beyond our own borders?