For discussion: If you were a pedophile

[monster]

I think a large part of one of the problems with this topic -and it extends outside of this topic also- is that some people wish to live in denial of the sexuality of children. Sure, they'll tell funny stories of theri 4yo playing with his willy in the supermarket. But they refuse to think of it as sexual. Some little kids play with their genitals. A lot. Enough that they have to be getting something out of it. It is sexual.

But just because they know it feels good, doesn't mean they know what it's for. And doesn't make it OK to have sex with them. But they will have sex with each other, and play with each others genitals. And they won't necessarily know it's wrong. They can be sexual beings. It's still not OK for adults to have sex with them. They may even flirt with and invite the adults. It's still not OK -they're not able to give informed consent. If they can't give consent, who can? Their parents. Well, who wants to ask the parents of the child and what parents wants to hear that question>

So we have a law. with an arbitrary age limit, but one that will definitely outlaw all sex with physically immature juveniles. A law that pretty much states that children are not for sex. (good!) Even with other children (good!) So let's hang them all! (wait... my 15yo got drunk and fucked the class slapper at a party and he has to die...? your and my nine-year-olds decided to play doctor on their sleepover.......)

Why is this denial of children's sexuality a problem?

(1) the laws in place to prevent adults messing with children are also applied to children messing with children. And they are -as they should be for adults- pretty harsh laws. But 11yo Buckie knows it feels good when he bullies his little sister into giving him her candy. And he knows if feels good when he plays with his todger. And he knows it feels good when his momma rubs his back. And he knows it feels good when he bullies his sister into rubbing his dick. We adults can see what's wrong with this picture and how to define the degrees of badness here, but can little Buckie? And does he deserve a lifelong punishment for that? or execution?

(2) When presented with evidence of something we don't believe in, we try hard to find some other cause. If our children are behaving in a sexual manner, it must be the fault of an adult somewhere. Must be pedophiles. Strike 1. Pedophiles: Wait... we haven't even come out of the closet yet and already you're stoning us...... Sean here has presented an argument that you can have these leanings and not act on them. How often do you think he gets that chance? He'd stand a better chance of a fair hearing if he was born black into the heart of a KKK family

(3) Pedophiles don't deny the sexuality of children. They are the people who screamed "The emporer is naked". The fact that they run a rival tailoring outfit that would run him up a suit in a jiffy given the go-ahead by the govermnment doesn't work in their favor.

I wouldn't invite Sean to babysit my children. But if he became a regular dwellar, I'd probably stop by one one of our road trips, if invited. With the children. And the hubby. I think he's a Brit, though, so it ain't happening soon with airfares the way they are!

sorry if this seems disjointed and not in synch with the convo... it's been a long time in the verbalization and it still ain't perfect, but Ineed sleep

[DanaC]

Fucking awesome post monnie.

[sean]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

... the fact remains that there was no way your mentor could have known for sure that was how it would turn out. Maybe it didn't work out as well with other boys, whether he touched them or not. I say if what you're doing has the chance of emotionally scarring a child, you must not do it, even if it falls within the realm of "harmless" from a legal standpoint.

I'm inclined to agree with you Clodfobble. I think the strength in this relationship was that it was focused outward, on things we both enjoyed doing, and I always experienced his interest as optional and not oppressive. He also stood up for me against other adults on more than one occasion, at some cost to himself, which I think reflected the fact that it was a friendship that was acknowledged by others, and not just something 'between us'.

But I agree with you that the Pygmalion situation, 'grooming' in other words, even where nothing specifically sexual is intended, is an abuse of the adult's status and power.

As I've said, I've sought out friendship with kids on occasions, and possibly made myself vulnerable to accusations of this kind. In fact, I'm not even going to deny that I've been guilty of being over affectionate, but I've also tried very hard to monitor my conduct, and I've sought advice and input from other adults, including parents.

I think over time I've grown more skilled at stepping back when I need to, and I think this is part of a learning process. No one was going to help me with any of this, I've had to figure it all out for myself. I could feel bitter that no constructive help is available, but I don't, I just feel determined not to hurt anybody and determined to find happiness.

I've always believed, and always will believe that my interest in kids can be a force for good, and that I'm capable of expressing my feelings with care, sensitivity and restraint. If TheMercenary disagrees and wants to come after me with his 27 guns, let him. I'm no pussy either.

[monster]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Fucking awesome post monnie.

thanks. I'll probably be arrested by the parent police tomorrow. Remember the incest topic? (that was this forum, right?)

[DanaC]

Just watch out for anyone with a rope in their hands and half a dozen mates :P

[monster]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I say if what you're doing has the chance of emotionally scarring a child, you must not do it, even if it falls within the realm of "harmless" from a legal standpoint.

Wait wait wait, i missed this until sean quoted it.

Doesn't the whole task of being a parent fall into the category of having "a chance of emotionally scarring a child"? i have emotional scars from my parents and they had no intent to harm me (mostly) -they just wanted to harm each other and we got int the crossfire.

[sean]

Originally Posted by monster

Doesn't the whole task of being a parent fall into the category of having "a chance of emotionally scarring a child"? i have emotional scars from my parents and they had no intent to harm me (mostly) -they just wanted to harm each other and we got int the crossfire.

you mean like this... This Be The Verse?

But I think there's an important point I should make. Altho I do observe the legal boundaries, they aren't my primary guide.

I don't consider a kind of conduct with children to be ok just becos it's not illegal. My standards are more rigorous than that, and one of the things I do to develop those standards is have conversations like this one.

It may come as a shock, but I am honestly committed to the welfare of children. Also, I doubt I'm the only paedophile in history who's been so moved ... the name Robert Baden-Powell springs to mind.

[sean]

Originally Posted by monster

.... I wouldn't invite Sean to babysit my children. But if he became a regular dwellar, I'd probably stop by one one of our road trips, if invited. With the children. And the hubby. I think he's a Brit, though, so it ain't happening soon with airfares the way they are! ...

Thanks monster. Good points.

And I can live without babysitting your kids, altho I am pretty good at it. Also, I'm a lot further away than Britain.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by monster

Doesn't the whole task of being a parent fall into the category of having "a chance of emotionally scarring a child"? i have emotional scars from my parents and they had no intent to harm me (mostly) -they just wanted to harm each other and we got int the crossfire.

It's a question of forethought. I would suggest to most parents that, yes, harming the other parent is likely to have negative repurcussions on the children, and they should avoid doing it. Obviously there will be times when we all inadvertently scar our children, but we make the best effort we can to stop and consider each choice we make. What's the risk, and how easy is it to avoid that risk? In the case of a pedophile befriending and loving a child (albeit in a nonsexual way,) I'd say the risk is high enough, and avoiding the situation entirely is possible in most cases.

[monster]

I think you overestimate most people's thinking abilities. You are smarter than the average bear. Most people are the average bear.

How many people report emotional scars from their parents? And how many from pedophiles? and how many were raped by their parents step-parents compared to by pedophile non-family members

[monster]

Most Parents are a danger to their children, it's a wonder so many of us make it through to the other side.

[sean]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I'm glad you had a positive experience with this sort of thing--though I'll be honest and say that I don't think it was actually that positive for you overall. There's no way we can know how you would have turned out if you'd never had this relationship with this adult, so the point is moot.

That's true Clodfobble, but let me say something else. This person was an accomplished mountaineer. Although I also came from a mountain background, he is the person who introduced me to technical alpine climbing. This pursuit, more than any other single thing, gave me the self discipline and confidence to overcome what have at times been daunting odds. There's much more to this, but I can't go into it here.

what mountains am i talking about? these...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...k1600x1200.jpg
http://www.cleangreen.co.nz/gallery1...20Aspiring.jpg

I have my own experience with this type of situation. Except in my case, the adult in question made me massively uncomfortable every moment I had to be around him. The fact that he didn't touch me sexually didn't make his touch any less abhorrent, and his stated and demonstrated "love" for me put me in a terrible position of resenting him and fearing the loss of his approval.

I'm sorry you had this experience, and I certainly have no wish to trivialize it. It sounds like this man caused you real harm, and I'd contend that your experience was quite different from mine.

I have to say, I feel a strong sense of solidarity with most paedophiles, even those who are guilty of sexual offences and less obvious errors of judgement. That sympathy doesn't extend to sadists and child abusers.

I feel desperately sad for children that suffer through the wrong actions of paedophiles, and when I read a story in the paper that makes me think "there but for the Grace of God", it makes me just as sad. One reason I'm engaged in this conversation is because I want to make it possible for people like me to feel less alone and more able to meet their emotional needs without harming kids.

It must be obvious to most of you here that there's more to this than draconian punishments.

[DanaC]

I think you've given some of us a lot to think about sean.

So, do you still go mountain climbing?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by monster

Most Parents are a danger to their children, it's a wonder so many of us make it through to the other side.

[capnhowdy]

From sean's post #104

For one, altho I wasn't sexually precocious (quite the opposite, I had a very late puberty) I really loved girls when I was a young boy, and I also had a lot of opportunities for sex play. This was always consensual and enjoyable, and in many ways my sex life up until age ten was as good as it's ever been.

Question: At what age did you become sexually active?