Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by marichiko

"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.

Then I accept your apology. You're welcome.

[Clodfobble]

But isn't that what it's ALWAYS required??

Originally Posted by Brianna

Then I accept your apology. You're welcome.

Well, at least you're witty if not psychic.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What I am saying is that it: (dog feces, cockroaches) have become normal to many. How to combat that?

YOU don’t, it’s not YOUR problem, if you don’t want it to be. And it's nothing to do with the "American Dream". The AD is about having the opportunity to do it for yourself.

There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.

Here's another fact: 44 MILLION Americans, eight out of ten of them in working families, are uninsured and cannot get even the most basic medical care from the "best system of medical care in the world." What has happened to the "American dream" for those 44 million Americans?

This is not supposed to be a socialist country. There never was a guarantee, only an opportunity for those that could measure up. I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me.

the Economist loves to bitch about funded Unis in places like the UK and Australia but crap, it's better than the US system. Not perfect but better.

Not everybody can qualify or afford to go to Harvard, but we have an extensive system of state universities and community colleges, that are affordable and give you a good basic education. More importantly they give you that sheepskin.

We used to have a democracy that was responsive to the will of the people and manufacturing jobs that paid workers a decent wage

We used to have citizens that took part in the political system and wouldn’t reelect Marion Barry.
They were involved in their community and didn’t care who got kicked off the island this week.
They used to go over their kids homework, talk to their kids teachers, and go to PTA meetings.
They used to care about their community and their country, they shopped at local merchants and bought American made products.
But now,....It’s me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme, gimme, more, more, more.
More than they earned, more than they need, more than they deserve.

[lookout123]

very well said bruce.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

But isn't that what it's ALWAYS required??

Probably...but folks tend to overlook the latter two.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

This is not supposed to be a socialist country. There never was a guarantee, only an opportunity for those that could measure up. I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me.

No, it's not supposed to be a socialist country. This thread, however is about "The American Dream", which on many accounts seems to be a thing of the past. In our parents' generation, a young man of average intelligence with just a high school diploma could get a job in a factory, move up if he wanted, support his family and retire from that same job when he was 55. That, I would say, is what most of us see as the "American Dream." Was that socialism? Today, the factory jobs are in China, the average person changes jobs every few years and many of us probably won't get to retire until we're 70 (if then). Yes, it's still up to each individual to make it, and you're not responsible for anyone but yourself. I would just say that the "American Dream" has lost a significant amount of its luster.

[Clodfobble]

In our parents' generation, a young man of average intelligence with just a high school diploma could get a job in a factory, move up if he wanted, support his family and retire from that same job when he was 55. That, I would say, is what most of us see as the "American Dream." Was that socialism? Today, the factory jobs are in China, the average person changes jobs every few years and many of us probably won't get to retire until we're 70 (if then).

Ok wait. First of all, your statistics are way off. From the Employee Benefit Research Institute: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the period 1950–1955, the median age of retirement was 66.9 for men and 67.7 for women. By the period 1990–1995, it was 62.7 for men and 62.6 for women. The median retirement age is projected in to be 61.7 for men and 61.2 for women during 2000–2005."

Second of all, I agree that the average person nowadays does change jobs much more frequently than in the past. But that doesn't mean that it's more difficult to be successful or support your family in that type of economy. It just requires a different mindset. I have numerous friends of average intelligence who graduated high school 6-10 years ago and did not go to college. The ones who worked hard are very successful today. One of them has moved her way up from cashier to HR Administrator, in 6 years at the same grocery store. Her husband approached a small construction company and worked for a year for very little money on the understanding that he wanted to learn everything there was to learn--then he left to start his own contracting company, and now the two of them live in a house worth more than $300K. Neither one of them went to college, and neither one of them is a genius by any means. But they worked hard and took opportunities where they were.

[Clodfobble]

As an afterthought, garnet, I have a question: Why is it that a modern manager of a Jack-in-the-Box must drink himself into a stupor over the suckiness of his job, but a factory worker 50 years ago must have been doing a jig over the opportunity to grind steel all day?

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble
Ok wait. First of all, your statistics are way off. From the [URL=http://www.ebri.org/facts/0701fact.htm

Employee Benefit Research Institute[/url]: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the period 1950–1955, the median age of retirement was 66.9 for men and 67.7 for women. By the period 1990–1995, it was 62.7 for men and 62.6 for women. The median retirement age is projected in to be 61.7 for men and 61.2 for women during 2000–2005."

I'm not sure how old you are, but my parents did not retire in 1950-55....

Ok, I'll give you that I'm 5-6 years off. I might add that for the years you are quoting people get something called Social Security when they retire. My particular demographic will not retire for another 25-30 years. With the large number of baby boomers retiring shortly, will I ever see any of the money I've put into the system? Probably not. Will I most likely have to work longer than age 62 (the average age of today's retireee) because of this? yes, probably.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me...
They used to care about their community and their country...
But now,....It’s me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme, gimme, more, more, more.

Bruce, I understand that you strongly disagree with my political outlook, but with the greatest of respect, don't you see the extreme dissonance in your attitude? Either you give a damn or you don't.

If you wanted to create a strong country, one where it was possible to dream dreams and with enough hard work and courage, make them possible, where would you begin? Wouldn't it be with the PEOPLE of that country? A country's people need to be educated enough to make intelligent decisions for themselves and for their communities and their nation. They need to be healthy so they can lead productive, useful lives. They need to share a sense of purpose and unity which will allow them to pull forward together, rather than pull apart into fragments alone. They need to share a sense of values about justice and dignity and honor and self respect.

Like it or not, we are all inter-connected and we all depend upon one another. This is not socialism, this is how the human animal evolved - to be a part of a society and not a lone wolf howling in the wilderness. It is also pragmatic. No man can be all things for himself alone.

If I am childless, why should I have to pay taxes that will help put my neighbor's children through school? If for no other reason then my own good, that's why. The neighbor's child will grow into the adult who gives me medical care or repairs my car or becomes the minister at the church I attend or repairs the lines which carry electricity in my home. What a large return on such a relatively small investment! What a bargain, I'll take it! If you don't want it, go live in a shack somewhere without electricity and do without medical treatment and in your solitude curse God, and die. But don't force me to bear the burden of your foolish choices.

Why should I pay taxes to insure that we have universal health care in this country? If for no other reason than my own good, that's why. The man whose medical bills my taxes help pay will be rehabilitated after a stroke or a heart attack and he will go back to his job paving the roads in my town or fixing my roof or discovering a cure for an illness that I have come down with myself. That man's year's of training and education won't be tossed aside because he has no doctor to treat him and without medical care, he can't work. What a great return on my investment! What a bargain, I'll take it! If you don't want it, go live in your house with no plumbing on a rutted out dirt road and die slowly of your own chronic disease. But don't force the consequences of your own poor choices on me.

What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities. THESE are the Americans who cry, "More, more, more," and "me, me, me." The black school child who wants a decent education is not the force which is bringing America to its knees and taking tax dollars which give no return from your pocket. The one who is robbing you blind is the corporation with its off shore banking practices, its tax dodges that it got via its very own paid congressman, and the jobs it outsourced away from your community and off to some third world country. The man who needs insulin for his diabetes is not your enemy, but the man whose income puts him in the top 5% of the nation's most wealthy and pays fewer taxes than you do is.

Why is it that so many conservatives who shout their patriotism so loudly, seem to hate the very people who make up the country whose flag they wave? I believe in the American people. We have a strong work ethic, we go to church and school, and we are by and by large honest. The people of this country have been decieved into believing that their fellow Americans are the enemy. Nothing could be further from the truth and yet, nothing else could better serve to further the ends of those few at the top who do not cry "More", but merely seize it from our unresisting hands instead.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

As an afterthought, garnet, I have a question: Why is it that a modern manager of a Jack-in-the-Box must drink himself into a stupor over the suckiness of his job, but a factory worker 50 years ago must have been doing a jig over the opportunity to grind steel all day?

What happened to you? Such hostility.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by marichiko

The man who needs insulin for his diabetes is not your enemy, but the man whose income puts him in the top 5% of the nation's most wealthy and pays fewer taxes than you do is.

Amen! Thank you.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by garnet

Will I most likely have to work longer than age 62 (the average age of today's retireee) because of this? yes, probably.

not if you are doing what you are supposed to do and saving and investing for your retirement years. the people who didn't save and invest rarely get a comfortable retirement at any age, during any time period.

so on that note, what are you doing to prepare for your retirement?

[Clodfobble]

What happened to you? Such hostility.

Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.