I defaulted to politics on this one, I was torn. - Page 2

iamthewalrus109 · 03-01-2005, 12:29 PM

Regardless of whether Christ existed or not, it's the teachings of Christ (or whomever) that are the important parts. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are what to be gleamed out of the Gospels, not whether he liked pita, or was real or unreal. Wake up folks.

-Walrus

OnyxCougar · 03-01-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

Regardless of whether Christ existed or not, it's the teachings of Christ (or whomever) that are the important parts. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are what to be gleamed out of the Gospels, not whether he liked pita, or was real or unreal. Wake up folks.

-Walrus

Wake up walrus.

The basis of Christianity is saving grace (redemption of sin, final sacrifice, etc) pivots on Jesus' existence, life, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Without that, the rest of it crumbles. If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him? He was simply a heretical Rabbi.

glatt · 03-01-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him?

Because good ideas will stand on their own merits. The ideas credited to him are some really good ones.

Happy Monkey · 03-01-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him? He was simply a heretical Rabbi.

Someone can have good ideas without being divine. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are good ideas no matter who Jesus' father was.

And persecuted heretics are more likely to have thought more deeply about the subject than orthodox people - they may or may not be more correct, but they have at least considered it deeply.

iamthewalrus109 · 03-01-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Wake up walrus.

The basis of Christianity is saving grace (redemption of sin, final sacrifice, etc) pivots on Jesus' existence, life, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Without that, the rest of it crumbles. If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him? He was simply a heretical Rabbi.

That's all window dressing and the dogma of it all. As a Catholic, having been read the Gospels at length, I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels. To only try to pick apart the Gospels for the mystical aspects and the then debunk it is a bit short sighted. If that is all you saw, then you are blinded by a secular pesimism that has consistently thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

-Walrus

Troubleshooter · 03-01-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

That's all window dressing and the dogma of it all. As a Catholic, having been read the Gospels at length, I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels.

-Walrus

*blink*blink*

Clodfobble · 03-01-2005, 03:28 PM

then you are blinded by a secular pesimism

This was the one I was dumbstruck by...

iamthewalrus109 · 03-01-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

then you are blinded by a secular pesimism

This was the one I was dumbstruck by...

The comment was made in reference to the "herretical Rabbi" comment, not onyxcougar directly. If someone only saw the story that way, then its a short sighted pesimistic view in my eyes. The secular part is in reference to debunking anything religious, point out how none of it could happen based on "facts", regardless if the teachings are based on life and the better treatment of your fellow man. That's all. None of which takes into consideration the possiblity of the inherent value of the teachings. Furthermore, if Christ was real, do you really think he would want people only to treat others well because he said so, that goes against the entire concept of Christ. I reject Cougar's assertion of "why listen to the teachings then" mentality. If you can't just listen to the words and the morals they try to teach, and you need a lot of fire,brimstone and proof that Jesus was the son of God to scare you to be good, I feel sorry for you.

-Walrus

Schrodinger's Cat · 03-01-2005, 05:47 PM

Gotta agree with Walrus on this one. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. He had some great moral and ethical teachings to give, however. If the only reason people try to act as they are told to in the Gospels, then they are actually not following Christ's teachings at all. They are just children pretending to be good, so Dad won't get out his belt.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-01-2005, 09:15 PM

Me too.
It's like dismissing a post out of hand because it doesn't link an impressive expert. Read the words, ponder the thoughts, then if you disagree with the message that's your privilege.

Troubleshooter · 03-01-2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Me too.

I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels.

2 John

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Hebrews

10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

OnyxCougar · 03-02-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

The comment was made in reference to the "herretical Rabbi" comment, not onyxcougar directly. If someone only saw the story that way, then its a short sighted pesimistic view in my eyes. The secular part is in reference to debunking anything religious, point out how none of it could happen based on "facts", regardless if the teachings are based on life and the better treatment of your fellow man. That's all. None of which takes into consideration the possiblity of the inherent value of the teachings. Furthermore, if Christ was real, do you really think he would want people only to treat others well because he said so, that goes against the entire concept of Christ. I reject Cougar's assertion of "why listen to the teachings then" mentality. If you can't just listen to the words and the morals they try to teach, and you need a lot of fire,brimstone and proof that Jesus was the son of God to scare you to be good, I feel sorry for you.
-Walrus

Please don't misunderstand. *I* don't think that way, but there are many secular folks who do, which is why I made the comment.

Tonchi · 03-02-2005, 02:33 AM

How did we get this far along without somebody remembering Gore Vidal's "LIVE, from Golgotha!"?

OnyxCougar · 03-02-2005, 06:32 PM

Many times people ask me

"If God is a loving God, why does he allow suffering?"

(this is one I get from Jews alot) "God is eternal and unchanging. If Jesus was really the Messiah, then by definition, God changed the rules. That is not who God is, so Jesus was not the Messiah."

"I can't get behind a religion that scares people into believing."

These are all examples of people who haven't read the material, or at very least have a poor understanding of it. What other reasons have you given (or heard) that people use as an excuse not to believe? (This does not include people who flat out admit they don't want to believe because they simply don't want to. I'm talking about people who say they are seeking but give excuses.)

Schrodinger's Cat · 03-02-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Many times people ask me

"If God is a loving God, why does he allow suffering?"

(this is one I get from Jews alot) "God is eternal and unchanging. If Jesus was really the Messiah, then by definition, God changed the rules. That is not who God is, so Jesus was not the Messiah."

"I can't get behind a religion that scares people into believing."

These are all examples of people who haven't read the material, or at very least have a poor understanding of it. What other reasons have you given (or heard) that people use as an excuse not to believe? (This does not include people who flat out admit they don't want to believe because they simply don't want to. I'm talking about people who say they are seeking but give excuses.)

The Holocaust. You can make every argument you please, but that one is the deal breaker for me. A personal god who presided over that is the devil and he gets no allegiance from me. BTW, WHOSE material? God's? On what proof, other than your belief?

03-01-2005, 12:29 PM	#1
iamthewalrus109 High Propagandist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 111	It's the teachings, not the being Regardless of whether Christ existed or not, it's the teachings of Christ (or whomever) that are the important parts. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are what to be gleamed out of the Gospels, not whether he liked pita, or was real or unreal. Wake up folks. -Walrus

03-01-2005, 05:47 PM	#9
Schrodinger's Cat Macavity Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A Black Box Posts: 157	Gotta agree with Walrus on this one. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. He had some great moral and ethical teachings to give, however. If the only reason people try to act as they are told to in the Gospels, then they are actually not following Christ's teachings at all. They are just children pretending to be good, so Dad won't get out his belt. __________________ Macavity, Macavity, there's no on like Macavity, He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity. - T.S. Eliot, Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats

03-01-2005, 09:15 PM	#10
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Me too. It's like dismissing a post out of hand because it doesn't link an impressive expert. Read the words, ponder the thoughts, then if you disagree with the message that's your privilege. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-02-2005, 02:33 AM	#13
Tonchi Victim of gravity Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hiding in plain sight Posts: 1,412	How did we get this far along without somebody remembering Gore Vidal's "LIVE, from Golgotha!"? __________________ Everything you've ever heard about Fresno is true.

03-02-2005, 06:32 PM	#14
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	Many times people ask me "If God is a loving God, why does he allow suffering?" (this is one I get from Jews alot) "God is eternal and unchanging. If Jesus was really the Messiah, then by definition, God changed the rules. That is not who God is, so Jesus was not the Messiah." "I can't get behind a religion that scares people into believing." These are all examples of people who haven't read the material, or at very least have a poor understanding of it. What other reasons have you given (or heard) that people use as an excuse not to believe? (This does not include people who flat out admit they don't want to believe because they simply don't want to. I'm talking about people who say they are seeking but give excuses.) __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-01-2005, 03:28 PM	#7
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	then you are blinded by a secular pesimism This was the one I was dumbstruck by...

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