How we know what we know: utter denial in human beings

[9th Engineer]

I don't think that lying to anyone under any excuse is kindness. Whether or not you cloud the lie in poetic lines about kindness nothing to do with the fact that you are lying to them. Even the feeling that you lie because you care about them is false, because you are belittling them in the process. You say "well, they would be happier if they thought this" but it really ends up being "well, they can't really handle it so I'd better make sure they don't hurt theirself". It is what is done with children, not adults.

In the end I think it boils down into happiness vs dignity

This is so common it is ridiculous, the example that confuses me the most is all the evidence of Mediterranean, Asian, North African and European presences in the Americas far before Columbus, yet American and European text books still contain that falsehood.
This is true of much of what we know of history, particularly of the move West in America, but a great deal more... it is sad and shameful.

Yes . Although we do mention Eric the Red .

There is also an old tradition of a pre-Columbus North American tribe being able to speak Welsh , but this is nonsense . Similarly , in New Zealand , some people of European stock like to claim that the Celts were there before the Maori . This theory tends to be put forward by uneducated racists .

Concerning the Chinese , yes , it seems to be respectable historical fact that they got around far more than was hitherto believed .

... see Martin Doutré for the loony Celt theories in New Zealand / Aotearoa .

I have also recently read that a very old bit of human has been found in America . The Native Americans want to give this bit of human a proper traditional burial , but the scientists say that DNA tests show that this bit of human does not belong to them , as it is a European .

Anyone know any more about that ?

[jinx]

Yeah.... google Kennewick Man.

[smoothmoniker]

I'm not advocating lying. To lie implies an intentional withholding of a relevant truth. If I am uncertain of the truth, then I am not lying.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

I'm not advocating lying. To lie implies an intentional withholding of a relevant truth. If I am uncertain of the truth, then I am not lying.

That's when I like to say, "I don't know." But then, I can offer an opinion.

Did I just miss the point by not reading the whole thread? Woops.

[footfootfoot]

Mark Twain takes this question up nicely in a short story entitled "Was it Heaven? Or Hell?"

Worth a look.

If you intentionally deceive (or intentionally allow a deception to continue), outright or through any form of omission, it is a lie.
It ain't hard.

[BlueSky_TheMan]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

If you intentionally deceive (or intentionally allow a deception to continue), outright or through any form of omission, it is a lie.
It ain't hard.

I think your on the money here that deception is a lie,and I think what's being proposed here is not deception though. It's simply allowing for the fact that your perception of truth does not have to be same as everyone Else's and therefore not forcing your viewpoint on another is the kindness. I'll try an example:

Let's say your friend gets a new haircut, and technically this haircut is a freakin wreck in the areas of straightness of cut, esthetically pleasing , or whatever reason you perceive. Your friend then asks you, "How do you like my new haircut?"

You say, "You look great!"

Deception is when you've said this because: you don't have the balls to express your perceived truth, you've said this in hopes that they will look foolish by proclaiming their great haircut to all they see, or any other motive that has intentions of allowing some pain into their existence.

Kindness is when you've said this because: you know your friend takes all criticism in a negative way and your perceived truth does no good by being expressed, you've said this because you truly see only greatness in your friend and the temporary effects of a haircut are meaningless to you, or you've said this because you're unsure whether you're perceiving a bad haircut or if it actually is a bad haircut.

Words and images surround us everyday, being interpreted in as many ways as there are people in existence. The only thing you can be absolutely sure of is whether you intended love or you intended hurt in your actions. Everything else is subjective.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by BlueSky_TheMan

~snip The only thing you can be absolutely sure of is whether you intended love or you intended hurt in your actions. Everything else is subjective.

wise words there

[BlueSky_TheMan]

Thank you skysidhe.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by BlueSky_TheMan

snip~ The only thing you can be absolutely sure of is whether you intended love or you intended hurt in your actions. Everything else is subjective.

But, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Maybe you're in the clear because your intentions are good, but that doesn't help the victim of good intentions gone awry.

[BlueSky_TheMan]

Hey XOBruce and 9th Engineer,

I was glad to see your responses to my last posting. Friendly discourse helps all of us clarify/understand our individual realities.

XOBruce: Would you mind giving me an example of a "victim of good intentions gone awry." ?

9th Engineer: Would you mind giving me an example of 'what can be known', as represented in your statement ", but you can know a hell of a lot more than your own emotions."