Thank you, America!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Attention, attention please.
I know tw can be longwinded and repetitive but reread what he said about Afghanistan....please.

Then go to this safe for work link, http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/...ect-evil-2.htm and understand how we can still pull the rabbit out of the hat in Afghanistan.....and why. Time is very, very short, but we can still win.

[John Adams]

I usually stay away from the political stuff since it annoys me but here you go. As far as invading Iraq - don't you think just maybe after years of weakness it was finally decided to show that part of the world that we would stand up for ourselves and not capitulate like oh say Spain? Of course the execution left a bit to be desired. Why do I draw this conclusion? Look at the following:

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.


Now we need someone to attack so they know we are not screwing around... who to choose, who to choose....

Saddam Hussein's Defiance of United Nations Resolutions
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...ade/sect2.html

And now we add more fodder (thanks to the UK):

Iraq - its infrastructure of concealment,
deception and intimidation

This report draws upon a number of sources, including intelligence material, and shows organisations whose job it is to keep Saddam and his regime in power, and to prevent the international community from disarming Iraq.how the Iraqi regime is constructed to have, and to keep, WMD, and is now engaged in a campaign of obstruction of the United Nations Weapons Inspectors.

Part One focusses on how Iraq's security organisations operate to conceal Weapons of Mass Destruction from UN Inspectors. It reveals that the inspectors are outnumbered by Iraqi intelligence by a ratio of 200 to 1.

Part Two gives up to date details of Iraq's network of intelligence and security

Part Three goes on to show the effects of the security apparatus on the ordinary people of Iraq.

While the reach of this network outside Iraq may be less apparent since the Gulf War of 1990/1991, inside Iraq, its grip is formidable over all levels of society. Saddam and his inner circle control the State infrastructure of fear.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page1470.asp


There is lots more information including reports from inspectors about meetings with reps from Bin Laden, attempted purchase of plutonium etc, they are all available with quick google searches but I think this post is long enough.

[DanaC]

Didn't my government pinch that report from some graduate student?

[John Adams]

there were "numerous sources" but yes that was one of them.

[DanaC]

I think us Brits should start insisting that all our governmental and intelligence reports be submitted to an electronic plagiarism testing system, like 'turnitin'.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Me? This is UT's doing, Wolf is the maid and I'm the gardener/pool boy.

Well, if you look at it that way, drinks are on me at the next garden/pool party

don't you think just maybe after years of weakness it was finally decided to show that part of the world that we would stand up for ourselves and not capitulate like oh say Spain?

Years of weakness??

You might have a look at this list...

And btw... foreign policy is a little different to a bar brawl.

[DanaC]

WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.

I think that's my favourite. Man you guys could teach the British Empire a thing or two about suppressing dissent :P

[Undertoad]

It's nuanced, foreign policy. So nuanced that you can completely overlook Bruce's point and just put up a big list and declare yourself smarter.

Of course if you read the list you notice what the weak parts were, confirming Bruce's point.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It's nuanced, foreign policy. So nuanced that you can completely overlook Bruce's point and just put up a big list and declare yourself smarter.

Of course if you read the list you notice what the weak parts were, confirming Bruce's point.

Of course I know that nowhere can I outsmart both you and Bruce, you guys are way to smart for me and weak parts are usually your speciality, so you tell me?

Somehow I have difficulties with "nuances" and US foreign policy in one sentence...

I think that's my favourite. Man you guys could teach the British Empire a thing or two about suppressing dissent :P

DanaC, have a google on "bonus army mcarthur patton" and see what interesting facts will pop up...

[tw]

Originally Posted by John Adams

I usually stay away from the political stuff since it annoys me but here you go. As far as invading Iraq - don't you think just maybe after years of weakness it was finally decided to show that part of the world that we would stand up for ourselves and not capitulate like oh say Spain?

Strange how you neglect events that resulted in some of those events - such as unjustified attacks by the USS New Jersey on Lebanon or bombing a baby formula factory in Sudan. Or bombing of Al Jezerra offices in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc whenever we don't like what they report. Somehow you think western nations are only sheep. Your post all but says for have no idea of Military Science 101 - also called the 'smoking gun'.

This is how 'big dics' justify their actions. Your post reeks of one sided perspective - them is evil and we are good. That one sided thought process is dangerous and even created an American defeat in Vietnam.

[xoxoxoBruce]

LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

Things like this give pause to the point of the list. These aren't the only ones, just examples.

[John Adams]

Originally Posted by tw

Strange how you neglect events that resulted in some of those events - such as unjustified attacks by the USS New Jersey on Lebanon or bombing a baby formula factory in Sudan. Or bombing of Al Jezerra offices in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc whenever we don't like what they report. Somehow you think western nations are only sheep. Your post all but says for have no idea of Military Science 101 - also called the 'smoking gun'.

This is how 'big dics' justify their actions. Your post reeks of one sided perspective - them is evil and we are good. That one sided thought process is dangerous and even created an American defeat in Vietnam.

First let me thank you for the acknowledgment of my manhood, I am very proud of it.

Now as to my opinion - well of course it's one sided otherwise it wouldn't be my opinion.

Now let's look at your examples - first the USS New Jersey on Lebanon:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/...banon82-A.html
nice timeline of events. I guess if you pick and choose what you want to look at you can make anyone look guilty of the first blow.

The Sudan thing - excerpt from an article:
"The US fired cruise missiles on the factory on 20 August of last year, in retaliation for the bombing of the US embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam.

US President Bill Clinton ordered the attack because Washington suspected the factory of being linked to Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, the man accused of masterminding the embassy bombings. " Source - BBC

Like I said, we can go back and forth all day. And as far as Military science, you hit it on the head, I am just a low class american that doesn't understand the first thing about it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by John Adams

Now as to my opinion - well of course it's one sided otherwise it wouldn't be my opinion.

Now let's look at your examples - first the
USS New Jersey on Lebanon: ...

The Sudan thing - excerpt from an article: ...

US President Bill Clinton ordered the attack because Washington suspected ...

Your manhood nor anyone elses was discussed. 'Big dic' thinking is a concept often demonstrated in history and too often results in useless wars. For example, your one sided post predicated on 'we are always good' and 'they are always evil' implies classic 'big dic' thinking.

US attacked a completely innocent Sudan because 'big dic' thinking assumed them to be evil and therefore was seeking any justification to attack Sudan. Who was 'evil'? Who started it - which actually had nothing to do with American embassy bombings?

The excerpt from Lebanon 1982-1984 (one of the better timelines) demonstrates attacks both on and by unknowns because Americans were confronting an ill defined enemy in a clearly misguided operation. (BTW, note references to Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps - and who intentionally created that 5000 women and children massacre.)

There was no 'pick and choose' argument. Because one party is attacked, then attacking another party is an appropriate response? Some see a world only in terms of 'good verses evil'. And then there are others who first learn many perspectives. That 1982-1984 Marine timeline is repeatedly vague on who did what to whom. Not mentioned is the Maronite shell that killed Marines in their Airport base. Actions by USS New Jersey were classic of an American military force flaying at an unknown enemy without a strategic objective. When Syrians shot at what appeared to be an Israeli warplane, then Americans attacked Syrians who in turn shot down two American aircraft. So who really was the evil party here? Syrians?

Using Military Science 101, it is obvious that American operations during that period were badly planned and misguided. As a result, the USS New Jersey was only making more people hate America. Military Science 101 makes it obvious that American deployment in 1982-1984 Lebanon was foolish and wrongheaded. It is left to you to explain why or to deny it.

Opinions that are one-side are extremist. Same extremism is also characteristic of 'big dic' thinking. Those who are informed see a plethora of opinions by grasping for the various perspectives. This is where you demonstrate to others where you come from and who you are. Currently you have a list of one sided examples characterizing 'we' as only good and 'they' as always evil. That would be very extermist and classic 'big dic' thinking. That is the dangerous thinking that creates wars and destroys wealthy nations.

[John Adams]

TW,
Thanks for that reply. As I stated in my reply to you we can go back forth for a long time as to who or what was done first (crusades anyone? Muslims were attacked with no provocation). You continue to point out that I am of the opinion that the US is all good and the rest are all evil, my question to you is why do you insist that it is the US that is all evil and everyone else is all good? As you can see the US went to Lebanon as part of a UN peacekeeping force, we did not wantonly deploy to that part of the world. Do I agree with everything that was done or the changes in policy after troops were deployed? No. But I also don't believe we are the big evil you make us out to be. The bombing of the factory in Sudan was based on intelligence from other countries including Israel. I do think we involve ourselves in other countries affairs too often but how often have we been asked to intercede?

I will say you seem like someone that would be fun to sit down to dinner with and converse.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by John Adams

...You continue to point out that I am of the opinion that the US is all good and the rest are all evil, my question to you is why do you insist that it is the US that is all evil and everyone else is all good?

I think reasonable people understand that the reality is neither, but they speak out as a rebuttal to their perception of the status quo.