PSA Jet crash, 1978

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

Interesting, considering the other aircraft involved WAS A CESSNA 172M.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but please check your facts before you post smarmy comments designed to make other people look stupid.

I stand corrected. Sapienza's comment about an airspace violation, and Joe's mention of Class B airspace threw me off.

The Piper I was thinking of I was in the Mexicana DC-9 collision with a Piper Archer in 1986 over Cerritos near LAX...it really stuck in my mind because that *was* a TCA violation (although not a profound one) and I was in VFR flight training in Cessnas near the edge of KPHL TCA at the time. Of course the LAX TCA wasn't *technically* "Class B airspace" then, as ICAO-compliant nomenclature wasn't adapted until much later. But TCA is the moral equivalant. There were pre-impact photos and significan on-the-ground casualties of that crash, too.

The PSA/Skyhawk merger was quite a bit before that, when I was just starting out on BBSs. In that case, *both* aircraft were on ATC clearances and in radar contact. I believe San Diego was not within an ARSA (since it's not now Class C) but possiblyTRSA or even ATA airspace at the time...certainly not a TCA, which was the then-current equivalant of Class B.. Regardless, no airspace violation was involved since both were on vectors at the time.

The idea of flying in Southern CA airspace is intimidating to us East Coast pilots. Myself, I'd prefer *not* to collect any CVRs...the situations that lead to keeping one can ruin your whole day.

And, yes, you are in a bad mood....but judging by your sig it's not an an unusual condition. :-)

The three most frequently heard statements on CVRs *not* involved in accidents:

"Oh, shit"
"Was that for us?" and
"What did he say?"

[jaguar]

*stunned*
Any chance of having that translated into normal-person speak? =)

[MaggieL]

Normal people don't talk about airspace at that level of detail, it's like the apocryphal story about eskimos having a plethora of different words for "snow". For normal people, I suppose it would have to read: "Maggie mixed up two similar midairs that were a decade apart in time".

Does Cellar content need subtitles for normal people now? Didn't used to. :-)

[juju]

Sapienza, is there anywhere else I might find that mp3 of the cockpit voice recorder? The link you posted only pulls up a "can't find this page" deal.

[jaguar]

I picked up that much, it went jargon from then on. Dosen't usually but i suffer from a curiousity complex.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jaguar
I picked up that much, it went jargon from then on. Dosen't usually but i suffer from a curiousity complex.

OK...if you're actually curious rather than bored, here's a semidejargonizer.

The 3D airspace in the US is sliced up into pieces. The various flavors have different rules for which aircraft can enter them under which flight rules (instrument vs. visual), what weather conditions in terms of visibility and separation from clouds they must observe and what kind of permission they need first. The first major division is between controlled and uncontrolled airspace.As radar coverage gets better and better, there's less and less uncontrolled airspace; it's now found mostly in blobs close to the ground (700 to 1200 feet above ground level or AGL) in between controlled airspace that touches the surface under airways or at airports...even some airports that don't have control towers but have a minimum density of operations under instrument rules...Wings Field in Ambler being an example.

The blobs of *controlled* airspace that are near to or tounch the surface used to have a system of semiconfusing acronymic na
mes: terminal control area (TCA). airport radar service area (ARSA), terminal radar service area (TRSA), airport traffic area (ATA) and control zones (CZ). In 1993, this system was reorganized, and the new airspace classes were given letter names to align them better with international practice as standardized by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). At that time, TCAs became Class B, ARSAs became Class C, TRSAs didn't do anything, ATAs became Class D, CZs and all other controlled airspace below 18,000' above mean sea level (MSL) or above Flight Level 600 (60,000' MSL) became Class E, and the "Continental Control Area (CCA)" where most airliners cruise (between 18,000' and 60,000' MSL) was renamed Class A.

So, all the classes of "alphabet airspace" other than G are considered "controlled" to some degree, and *all* aircraft operating under instrument flight rules (IFR) within controlled airspace will be in radio (and usually, but not always radar) contact with an air traffic controller (ATC) whose job it is to make sure all IFR aircraft maintain a minimum separation from each other. The ATC will also, to the extent practical, ensure separation between IFR flights and those operating under visual flight rules (VFR), who he may (Classes B, C or D) or may not (Class E and G) be able to reach via radio. (No VFR operations are permitted in Class A airspace)

OK...what jargon is left? KPHL= Philly International Airport. LAX=Los Angeles International. CVR=Cockpit Voice Recorder, one of two flavors of "black box", the other being Flight Data Recorder or FDR..

I've had too much coffee this morning...

[sapienza]

I put all my CVR recordings in here:
http://www.worldwidemart.com/sapienza/mp3/cvr/

The MP3s' name have the name of the flight, the plane type, and what happened in the crash.

sapienza

[Undertoad]

Christ this thread is six years old. Maybe I should close old threads?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Christ this thread is six years old. Maybe I should close old threads?

I like it that the old threads are still open.

[lookout123]

me too. it is fun when they pop back to the top. it is interesting to see if a person's posting style/content or opinions have changed since that time.

[busterb]

Perhaps some. That attract certain folks.

[classicman]

That is too bizarre.

[bigw00dy]

ok............

[Shawnee123]

man, bruce90210 was pissed off! Someone get that man a box!

[Shawnee123]

that is just...wow!