Impeding changes to our Health Care system

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

In name only, insurance companies already do that for you.

Except that wasn't even what the 'death panels' supposedly were. The bullshit started with the provision that the elderly be given access to end-of-life counselling to help them plan for their future care.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Oh I agree with that as well. But you don't need obamacare to do that.

Then what do we need? What is a practical credible alternative that's been proposed that would help like this provision did?

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Yes. I would get rid of it entirely and start over.

Start over with WHAT? what goals would your program have, merc?

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

No.

Honestly, i've seen you railing against both the insurance industry and against obamacare. I assume that to indicate that you think something about the system needs to change. Do you think Obamacare too weak to stop the broken insurance companies and fix our broken health care system, or too strong and heavy-handed to do so? if it's too strong, what provisions go too far? if it's too weak, what would you add to it?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

TheMercenary;788095]Sure there is, plenty.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/BadMedicineWP.pdf

Generally, as a liberal, I discount most everything that comes out of the Cato Institute
because it is almost completely business- and tax-reduction oriented.
But I'd like to thank you for this link because there is some information there.

So far I've read only the first 30 or so of the 60 pages, and want to finish it before
getting into the details.
My impression of the Tanner's coverage of The Patient Protection and
Affordable Care Act (Obamacare).
is broad and factual when citing information from the law, itself.
But, of course, he obviously inserts a very conservative view
when it comes to interpretation, implications, and politics.

Again, thanks for the link...

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

My auto insurance has not risen 30% a year all the while increasing my deductible and covering less. Obamacare will do nothing to control what insurance companies are going to charge you.

Well, if it has no effect on the cost of insurance, then I'm even more in favor of it! People I personally know are now allowed to buy coverage that they couldn't get before. This is a good thing.

If you're so worried about what your insurance company is going to charge you, why didn't you just opt out of the whole thing? Even now, no one is forcing you to be insured for a few more years. Yet you choose to be.

[TheMercenary]

"No effect on the cost of Insurance" means they can continue to charge you more and more and provide you less.

Because right now I can afford it.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

"No effect on the cost of Insurance" means they can continue to charge you more and more and provide you less.

Right. And they were going to do that anyway. So why shouldn't my friend's family also be allowed to get charged more and more, if they want to join the party?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Right. And they were going to do that anyway. So why shouldn't my friend's family also be allowed to get charged more and more, if they want to join the party?

To what end? Obamacare and the insurance companies are in bed on the costs to the end user. They made a deal with the devil. As I have said many times, if they were really serious about it they should have just gone ahead and offered a Public Option to control costs for the insured. But they didn't.

[Clodfobble]

You mean the Republicans prevented them from offering the Public option. And as I recall, you were very much against it as well.

I agree that a single-payer system would be better than what we have now, but what we have now is also better than what we used to have. Baby steps are still steps.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You mean the Republicans prevented them from offering the Public option. And as I recall, you were very much against it as well.

I agree that a single-payer system would be better than what we have now, but what we have now is also better than what we used to have. Baby steps are still steps.

Repubes may have been against it, but in the end they had neither any say or any vote to repeal it. It was completely a onesided bill. I am against socialized medicine on a mass scale for this country. In the end I said many times that they should have just gone all in and offered the public option.

[classicman]

But the R's are all for capitalism and firing people. One could conclude that they would be in favor of that now.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

But the R's are all for capitalism and firing people. One could conclude that they would be in favor of that now.

The out of context quote by Romny was talking about people in government that were advancing programs he disagreed with.

[classicman]

We all, I hope, know that. You're off on a tangent though.
Do you think it would be beneficial to end the part of medicare D that prevents the Gov't from negotiating prices?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

We all, I hope, know that. You're off on a tangent though.

What eva...

Do you think it would be beneficial to end the part of medicare D that prevents the Gov't from negotiating prices?

Yes. I thought that was stupid. The whole donut hole thing was completely idiotic, cover them or don't, but don't leave a frigging hole in the middle.

[classicman]

No thanks. You win. I'm out.

[Undertoad]

Ibs, just to be the devil's advocate:

When you are no longer covered by your parents, and the hardware store doesn't cover you, what will happen?

A) You'll be covered under Medicare and while you won't get routine maintenance, the govt plan will pay the expenses if you get hit by a bus

B) You'll personally buy the lowest possible level of insurance out of your own pocket; if you don't or can't, you'll pay penalties and fines, and you'll remain uninsured

C) You'll be put into a pool of uncovered individuals and your "premiums" will be paid by taxpayers

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Ibs, just to be the devil's advocate:

When you are no longer covered by your parents, and the hardware store doesn't cover you, what will happen?

A) You'll be covered under Medicare and while you won't get routine maintenance, the govt plan will pay the expenses if you get hit by a bus

B) You'll personally buy the lowest possible level of insurance out of your own pocket; if you don't or can't, you'll pay penalties and fines, and you'll remain uninsured

C) You'll be put into a pool of uncovered individuals and your "premiums" will be paid by taxpayers

Here is a clip from Merc's link to the Cato Institute
Up to the age of 26, children can be added to their parents insurance.
After 26, they would be considered adults for health insurance purposes.
Essentially, a single male would be paying (only) $695 per year, but even that amount would be offset if the person's income were less than 133% of the poverty rate (~$14,000)


http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/BadMedicineWP.pdf

Bad Medicine
A Guide to the Real Costs and Consequences of the New Health Care Law
(Updated and Revised for 2011)
Michael D Tanner
CATO Institute
2011


Page 3

Under the law, beginning in 2014, those
who failed to obtain insurance would be
subject to a tax penalty. That penalty would
be quite mild at first, either $95 or one per-
cent of annual income in 2014, whichever is
greater.23 But it ramps up quickly after that,
the greater of $325 or 2 percent of annual
income in 2015, and the greater of $695 or
2.5 percent of annual income after that. In
calculating the total penalty for an unin-
sured family, children count as half an adult,
which means that in 2016 an uninsured
family of four would face a minimum penal-
ty of $2,085 ($695+$695+$347.50+$347.50),
pro-rated on the basis of the number of
months that the person was uninsured over
the course of the year.24 Individuals will be
exempt from the penalties if they earn less
than an income threshold to be determined
by the secretary of Health and Human Ser-
vices (but presumed to be roughly the pov-
erty level), or if they are unable to obtain
insurance that costs less than 8 percent of
their gross incomes.25
According to the CBO, roughly four mil-
lion Americans will be hit by penalties in
2016, with the penalties averaging slightly
more than $1,000.26 In fact, the federal gov-
ernment expects to raise $17 billion from
penalties by 2019.27