Rumors and Truth

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Well there you go.
I expect Cicero never to work again, as apparently she will be better off than any of you if she doesn't.

Cicero, do try to get up before 18.00 GMT though, so I still have the occasional distraction at work. Because despite living in a country to the left of Obama's views, I still feel the need to work and earn a living. Still, that's the Brit mentality, it's only lazy Americans who would quit if they thought there was a safety net.

lol! Yes, I plan to sit on my lazy American ass forever. Hell, maybe I'll have a kid to get some welfare money. Because that's what people know me for. Doing absolutely nothing. No motivation whatsoever, I'm not one of those practical, pull myself up by my bootstraps people. I just sit on my lazy ass and wait for the government to figure it out for me. I don't know when the last time it was that I actually broke a sweat doing work. Hell maybe I'll get a job and injure myself at work and get to quit, with some cash in my pockets. Typical lazy American over here! Now accepting handouts! Maybe I'll come up with a mental illness to get some benefits. I feel schizophrenic just now, because I must be out of my mind if I think I just read that right. heh.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by Cicero

lol! Yes, I plan to sit on my lazy American ass forever. Hell, maybe I'll have a kid to get some welfare money. Because that's what people know me for. Doing absolutely nothing. No motivation whatsoever, I'm not one of those practical, pull myself up by my bootstraps people. I just sit on my lazy ass and wait for the government to figure it out for me. I don't know when the last time it was that I actually broke a sweat doing work. Hell maybe I'll get a job and injure myself at work and get to quit, with some cash in my pockets. Typical lazy American over here! Now accepting handouts! Maybe I'll come up with a mental illness to get some benefits. I feel schizophrenic just now, because I must be out of my mind if I think I just read that right. heh.

You are SO fired!

[Cicero]

Hmm...You sound like you don't mean that classic.

I'm sorry I took any interest in reading your post, however. Nice work. You are headed straight for management, sounds like.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Hmm...You sound like you don't mean that classic.

I'm sorry I took any interest in reading your post, however. Nice work. You are headed straight for management, sounds like.

No I was kidding - I really was. sorry if I offended

[Clodfobble]

As a legitimate question, what measures are in place in the UK to prevent abuse of the system? We absolutely have a problem with it here. Is it that you have fewer abusers, or you're more willing to accept that there will always be abusers?

[Sundae]

There are people that abuse the system. Of course there are, it's human nature.

The difference is more in attitude. It has come up before and it will come up again. Social Security is just that. The majority of people pay into it. The majority of people will only benefit when they need it.

Scroungers, loafers and good-for-nothings will dance to an elaborate tune to get what they want, but most people would prefer to work and only fall back on the system when they need to.

Now don't get me wrong, the right wing in this country resent it too. The Hate Mail has stories at least once a week about someone supposedly living off the fat of the land. To counter that, Channel 4 make documentaries about how miserable it is to be stuck on benefits.

The bottom line is the safety net is accepted in this country. And the general consensus is that we'd rather stop people falling through the cracks even if it means we have to put up with the occasional family of 13 with neither parent working (but at least they're still married!) Most people here don't believe benefits create scroungers (most people here receive at least something you don't get in America).

ETA I'm sure you know my comment about lazy Americans was in the spirit of the original post. But just to clarify.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

There are people that abuse the system. Of course there are, it's human nature.

The difference is more in attitude. It has come up before and it will come up again. Social Security is just that. The majority of people pay into it. The majority of people will only benefit when they need it.

Scroungers, loafers and good-for-nothings will dance to an elaborate tune to get what they want, but most people would prefer to work and only fall back on the system when they need to.

The bottom line is the safety net is accepted in this country. And the general consensus is that we'd rather stop people falling through the cracks ~snip~

All of the above applies to the vast majority of Americans too. Our problem is that we are so much larger than you and the amount of abuse and $$$$$$ are as well. numbers wise, I don't know about percentages. For that you need a bean counter.

[Clodfobble]

Oh yes, I thought the lazy Americans comment was quite funny. I wish there were a good way to quantify abusers of the system, to discover if you have a different number than we do. It's interesting that your stereotypical image of the abuser is "the occasional family of 13 with neither parent working (but at least they're still married!)" Ours would be more like the woman with 5 kids, all by different fathers, and neither she nor any of the fathers are working.

[Sundae]

I meant the cases reported by the Mail.
Although if you want real vitriol it's always aimed at asylum seekers, who get to stay in hotels free of charge. Yeah, I'd like to see a journalist exist a week in one of those places.

[DanaC]

The problem is though, that by attempting to stamp out the abuse you end up actually spending more than if you just left it untackled. We spend far more on chasing/finding and prosecuting benefits fraud than we ever save in doing so.

Mostly the 'abuse' of the system isn't people living the high life and desperately avoiding work. It's more often someone who is unable to take on a full-time/permanent job claiming benefits, with a few hours a week of undeclared work (maybe £30 or so doing a cleaning job, or a few hours a week on a marketstall) often just for a few weeks at a time.

One of the problems with benefits is that if you take on a job that doesn't work out, you've lost all your benefits (including help with rent etc) and are back at the start of the process, making fresh claims that can take weeks or months. IF you've been fired from the job, or walked out (for example if your boss makes your life hell) you can't claim benefits straight away. You can get 'hardship' payments but the whole while (several months) you are building up a backlog of unpaid rent.

For many people living at the margins of the economy, their experience of emplyment is often negative: employers who treat them with little respect, fights with overbearing supervisers etc, messed about on ovetime or shifts. I know of one employer in my town who only employs on temporary contracts and whose workers regularly get to the factory to start work and are told to go home again and try tomorrow.

I believe there should be a grace period with a new job. The people who struggle most in this area, the ones who are most profoundly stuck on benefits, are often also the people most vulnerable to bad employment practice and bullying in the workplace. I can understand why they don't want to make the leap off benefits into a workplace that might chew them up and spit them out, and then leave them high and dry with no benefits.

[Sundae]

That's why I had to depend on Steve for 3 months when I moved down here.
If I hadn't had a friend as a "landlord" I woul dhave been climbing the walls. Three months without rent. It's a very long time when you're worrying.

[DanaC]

*nods* Oh I know it.

When I was 20 I worked in a clothes shop. The week before I turned 21 (as predicted by myself and another girl) he 'let me go' because as he put it, there wasn't enough work to justify three regular assistants. I was the senior one, I was keyholder and opened up in the morning, but, at 21 I gained certain emloyment rights that I hadn't had before.

On my 21st birthday I received notification from the benefits agency that as I had been 'fired for misconduct' I was not entitled to unemployment benefits or rent assistance.

The power of the employer in that circumstance is incredible. His power extends beyond your employment with him.

I was fortunate enough to have a partner who intervened. He 'explained' to Vash why he should revise his statement to the job centre. Even so, it took a little over 8 weeks for the personal benefit to come through and about 13 weeks for the rent.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I was the senior one, I was keyholder and opened up in the morning, but, at 21 I gained certain emloyment rights that I hadn't had before.

Weeeelll... that's the flip side of giving people all these guarantees and extensive rights and whatnot--people will go out of their way to avoid honoring them. We don't give 21-year-olds (or anyone) special employment rights here (I assume you're talking about required vacation time, or something along those lines?), and one consequence is no one has ever been fired for turning 21.

I read a very detailed article awhile back about how finding employment as a woman in the UK was actually much, much harder than in the US, because of the extensive maternity benefits employers are required to provide. It talked about how it was common practice to remove your wedding ring for an interview, and that while it was technically illegal, many employers required agreements from new female employees that they were not going to get pregnant. That would never happen here, because maternity benefits are much more moderate, and employers don't take a huge hit from providing them. There are drawbacks to every system.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

one consequence is no one has ever been fired for turning 21.

No. We just make them part-time employees so they don't get the normal benefits. Wally World is famous for this.

[Cicero]

Heh. Thanx. It took you long enough...sign here please....