View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[Undertoad]

Well stated. But why is this displaced culture different? Even the majority of Israelis today are displaced Jews and progeny thereof, that headed to Israel because they were kicked out of the various Arabic countries that had been their ancestral homes.

[piercehawkeye45]

I try not to jump to solutions based on ideals, but the situation at hand. Ideally, the Palestinians are no different than any other displaced group in history, which there have been a tremendous amount. The natives in the United States are displaced and face third world living conditions, many times without electricity and water but no one besides a few native radicals argue for a native state. If I did base solutions on ideals, I would naturally have to argue for a similar solution by every displaced group which you can quickly realize is unrealistic.

The reason why the Palestinian situation is different than the natives in the United States is because of the situation at hand. Look at how the relations between Israel and Palestine have changed over the past 20 years and compare that to native versus colonist relations in other countries such as Australia and the United States. The difference is that Palestinians fight back and have much larger numbers.

If you honestly look at it, the oppression and conditions other natives are in are not that much different than the Palestinians. If the Palestinians did not fight back and had smaller numbers they would just become the same as the natives in the United States or Aboriginals in Australia.

I do not disagree with the Jews on becoming self-empowering. Actually, it is quite possibly the best example in history. It is just that the location that they picked was one that could never work out. If a different location was picked and a secular, not Jewish state, was formed or converted, we would not see a problem or it at least would be much smaller.

Knowing that, we can see why the situation in Palestine is different than with any other displaced culture that we give attention too and also why a different solution is necessary. Unfortunately, with the situation at hand, a peace between Israel and Palestine is not likely because of many different factors that are both internal and external.

[classicman]

BAM STIRS FEARS IN ISRAEL
COULD HALT DEATH BLOW TO HAMAS

AS WORLD leaders and international organizations rush to rescue Hamas, Israel faces complex bat tlefield challenges - while fearing a stab in the back from the incoming Obama administration.

Israel's leaders are asking themselves two questions: Is the cost of sending sufficient ground forces into Gaza just too high? And, upon his inauguration on Jan. 20, will President Obama undercut Israel's counterterror offensive before its goals have been reached?
Israel can deal with self-aggrandizing busybodies, such as French President Nicolas Sarkozy, whose irresponsible attempts to force a cease-fire upon Israel benefit only Hamas. (Carla, can't you give that guy something to do?) But Israel would be hard pressed to fight on without American support.

As government leaders and generals in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv weigh the question of whether or not to send tanks into Gaza's streets, they hear the clock ticking. A major ground incursion would take time. Would Israel Defense Forces soldiers find themselves fighting on political quicksand?

Despite the frankly anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish reporting of this conflict in the global media, Israel's military performance not only has been technically superb, but has been as humane as possible under such difficult circumstances.

From earlier briefings in Israel, I know the IDF takes an almost absurd degree of care in its targeting. The questioning doesn't stop with "Is that the right building?" it then asks, "What should be our angle of attack to ensure any rubble falls into the street, not atop the primary school next door?" (Hamas consistently embeds terror facilities among innocent civilians.)

Hitting a terrorist hideout in an apartment building, for example, an F-16 would be armed with the smallest warhead that could do the job. If the terrorists are tucked into rooms on the fourth floor, targeting officers evaluate which window the guided missile should go through to kill the terrorists, while minimizing harm to civilians living below.

Any military veteran can tell that the Israelis are taking enormous care to spare civilians. Given the number of airstrikes thus far and the hundreds of tons of bombs dropped, it remains remarkable that so few innocents have been injured in such a dense urban environment.

nuff said.

[TheMercenary]

Sounds like the potential for Israel to have it's own little Iraq.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/...ast/assess.php

[TheMercenary]

[xoxoxoBruce]

If you want pictures, here's pictures.

[Undertoad]

via Bruce's gallery,

When a photographer is present, the Hamas missile launchers are set up in a remote location. Notice there's no shot of them firing the ones in that location.

The ones actually launched are launched from neighborhoods.

[xoxoxoBruce]

When they are staging the drill for the photographer, the out of the way park is nice and won't bother anyone. But when they actually launch them, making smoke trails that can be followed back, then they want the cover of the neighborhood.

Oh, I did notice the Israelis made some humongous holes in the ground.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Oh, I did notice the Israelis made some humongous holes in the ground.

That one WAS the police station.

[TheMercenary]

They learned well from their brothern in Iraq. They set up many launchers on the back of trucks in crowded neighborhoods and near schools, knowing full well that the electronic track back would send rounds on the way in less than one minute. Then they could appeal to the American public with cries of how we were targeting civilians.

[tw]

Ironic as it may sound - to minimize loss of life, massive deaths of equal numbers on both sides are necessary. That is the only way that moderates from both sides can act as moderates again. That is the only way that wacko extremists can be disenfranchised. That is the only apparent way that this conflict can end up back at the negotiation table.

Once upon a time, there were no more suicide bombings, stealing land, etc. Once upon a time, the Oslo Accords were working. But as the Norwegian foreign minister predicted, George Jr would destroy the Oslo Accords in a world where wacko extremist view everyone as only good or evil. ie the Axis of Evil myth.

Another Oslo Accord is impossible until death rates are very high on both sides - until the number of dead make everyone realize how wacko those extremists really are.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

Ironic as it may sound - to minimize loss of life, massive deaths of equal numbers on both sides are necessary. That is the only way that moderates from both sides can act as moderates again. That is the only way that wacko extremists can be disenfranchised. That is the only apparent way that this conflict can end up back at the negotiation table.

Once upon a time, there were no more suicide bombings, stealing land, etc. Once upon a time, the Oslo Accords were working. But as the Norwegian foreign minister predicted, George Jr would destroy the Oslo Accords in a world where wacko extremist view everyone as only good or evil. ie the Axis of Evil myth.

Another Oslo Accord is impossible until death rates are very high on both sides - until the number of dead make everyone realize how wacko those extremists really are.

Oh really??

[classicman]

BS. I think the vast majority see the reality of the situation - comparing death tolls from one side versus the other is meaningless and childish.

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

BS. I think the vast majority see the reality of the situation - comparing death tolls from one side versus the other are meaningless and childish.

Funny how wackos suddenly lose power when death rates increase massively. But then that required one to think without posting meaningless and childish replies. Not that I expect you to think. This post was from tw. Therefore classicman must attack it. Typical of meaningless and childish replies.

Many a war suddenly had no purpose or glory once the death rates became impossible to accept. Numbers such as 10% are often discussed.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

Many a war suddenly had no purpose or glory once the death rates became impossible to accept. Numbers such as 10% are often discussed.

Cite.