ACORN

Originally Posted by classicman

That would be them, I guess. Then again their interpretation is as valid as yours, I guess.

To get back to the original question.
T=taxed
E=enough
A=already

Oh and you never replied to UT -

Voodoo economics....or simplistic to the extreme.

You cant simply divide the money spent by the number of jobs created....there are numerous other equally important factors that impact the cost/benefits of job creation programs, including the increase in income tax revenue and decline in UI payments and other govt assistance program, the resulting productivity increase and contribution to the GDP, more money circulating in the economy (when people have jobs, they spend money), secondary jobs created or saved......

The fact is that no one knows for certain what would have happened w/o the Recovery Act....but the economy is improving and many economists attribute it, in part, to the Recovery Act.

I dont think it was worth the risk to do nothing and there were no other viable proposals. As much as the Tea Party crowd hates it (while many followers benefit from it), I suspect they would have blamed Obama if he did nothing and the economy continued to tank as it was when he took office.

[Undertoad]

You could include the future interest on that spending too.

Ah well. The explanation is simpler, you know. There are times when the smartest minds can't predict the future. Those times are all the times.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

To get back to the original question.
T=taxed
E=enough
A=already

Classic, what do you want to eliminate to reduce your taxes? Remember, according to this article, 52% of our taxes go to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and other "safety nets". Then another 21% of our taxes go toward defense and security.

[classicman]

Huh? Someone asked what that stood for - I answered.

To answer your question - some of everything.

[xoxoxoBruce]

As long as I can remember, there have been articles in the paper, or things on TV, pointing to the federal government spending huge sums of tax money on things like studying the sex life of fruit flies, aiding foreign governments, and making life easy for some very rich, or very poor, people. This leads to a pent up frustration in the working class, who feel they have no control over their lives, or their government. Even more so, since the oil embargo of the early 70s, and subsequent blatant corruption of Congress with corporate money. That feeling of helplessness made people grumble, but most were living a fairly good life if they kept their head down, and kept plodding.

Along comes the TEA party, and people say, hooray, finally an chance to vent my frustration, an avenue for changing all this shit that's wrong, a chance to take back the Congress from the corporate pigs. But frustration doesn't lead to real change without organization. Unfortunately, some clever charlatans saw this opportunity to take the lead, feed the frustration with piles of bullshit, and turn the TEA party into another political tool, without most of these good people even knowing they'd been had.

Taking back control of the government, is only possible when people get involved at the local level, and clean up the government from the bottom up. It wouldn't be easy, it wouldn't be fast, but it's the only way to defeat big money for control of the future. Just voting won't do it, when someone else is controlling your choices.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Larry Elder's latest column, on Obama with a side order of ACORN's philosophy at the top.

We have a Socialist for a President, Socialists among his most fervent supporters, Socialists among some of his unappointable attempts at appointments. It quacks like a duck -- and even Redux, Donkey Party hack extraordinaire, cannot wave it away except solely to his own satisfaction. The rest of us, possessed of the faculty of sight and reluctant to suffer any wool-pulling, know better.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Unfortunately, some clever charlatans saw this opportunity to take the lead, feed the frustration with piles of bullshit, and turn the TEA party into another political tool, without most of these good people even knowing they'd been had.

Name a half-dozen of these, nationally.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Larry Elder's latest column, on Obama with a side order of ACORN's philosophy at the top.

We have a Socialist for a President, Socialists among his most fervent supporters, Socialists among some of his unappointable attempts at appointments. It quacks like a duck -- and even Redux, Donkey Party hack extraordinaire, cannot wave it away except solely to his own satisfaction. The rest of us, possessed of the faculty of sight and reluctant to suffer any wool-pulling, know better.

Well, if a conservative columnist at WND like Larry Elder says Obama is a socialist.....it must be so.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Name a half-dozen of these, nationally.

Astroturf organizations:
Washington insider/lobbyist/former Congressman Dick Armey and Freedom Works
Washington inside/lobbyist Grover Norquist and Americans for Tax Reform
Americans for Prosperity
all of the above run by lobbyists with corporate interests at their very core have funded many Tea Party events

Those not funded by the above have been funded by the Koch Family Foundation - ultra libertarians with a free market agenda

Then of course you have Hannity and Beck and Fox News aggressively promoting the Tea Party not simply reporting on it

and of course....Sarah Palin

[TheMercenary]

When taxes are spread evenly across all earners the tax system will be fair.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Redux, inasmuch as Larry Elder knows more about economics than you do, and always writes thoughtfully and with reference to the real -- I'll take Larry over a hack like yourself any day of the week and four times on Sundays.

That's why I keep sneering at the things you write.

If you listened to him and such as him, why, you'd actually be educated. As it is, your ideology demands you never use a faculty for wisdom -- or the the friends you have in that circle would disown you.

Those not funded by the above have been funded by the Koch Family Foundation - ultra libertarians with a free market agenda

Since when is that a description of charlatanry? You're beyond belief, Redux: you don't want the way that works for human beings??? Fella, you don't want anything that's actually good for free, adult humans.

The Nazis and the Communist revolutionaries strongly resembled you in that. You're a parlor pink, blaring away on the Internet, which makes you marginally less dangerous than they. The Communists lost their fellow-travelers... eventually. Socialism has not yet lost you.

and of course....Sarah Palin

Ah yes, the fashionable boogiewoman for the Left this month. But no charlatan. In fact, frank enough to be refreshing. Your sort mooed and bellowed like cows under lightning when Reagan did the same thing -- and he did a hell of a lot more good than the whole herd of you. In the end, the mooing and bellowing classes don't do much, either towards good or towards evil. But they are certainly annoying to watch.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Redux, inasmuch as Larry Elder knows more about economics than you do, and always writes thoughtfully and with reference to the real -- I'll take Larry over a hack like yourself any day of the week and four times on Sundays.

That's why I keep sneering at the things you write.

If you listened to him and such as him, why, you'd actually be educated. As it is, your ideology demands you never use a faculty for wisdom -- or the the friends you have in that circle would disown you.

UG.

Tell me how a health care system in which 200 million are covered by the private sector is socialism.

Or how a progressive tax system similar to every other western democracy and that been in place in the US since the income tax was first initiated is all of a sudden socialism.

Or how a temporary short-term bank bailout that has be repaid for the most part is socialism.

Why wasnt Social Security and Medicare socialism under Reagan and the Bushes.

Or a national secuity policy that is not all that different from Bush's.

Since when is that a description of charlatanry? You're beyond belief, Redux: you don't want the way that works for human beings??? Fella, you don't want anything that's actually good for free, adult humans.

The Nazis and the Communist revolutionaries strongly resembled you in that. You're a parlor pink, blaring away on the Internet, which makes you marginally less dangerous than they. The Communists lost their fellow-travelers... eventually. Socialism has not yet lost you.

Tell me how the Dick Armey's Freedom Works or the Koch Family Foundation's Americans for Prosperity funding of the Tea Party is populism and not an intent to protect their own corporate interests?

You've been asto-turfed, dude. A smart guy like you? Shame on you.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Redux, dear boy, have you never understood it takes people to be corporate? It's what humans do. Apparently it's something you don't.

The "corporate interest" is essentially the human interest. Certain invidious sorts combine as a chorus of concealment on that point.

It doesn't work any too well.

Tell me how Federal ownership of 61% of GM isn't socialism, the ownership (in various guise) of the means of production by the State? How many of the European nations spent time under Socialism? There are damned few that didn't, you know... Liechtenstein. Andorra. Maybe Luxembourg?

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Redux, dear boy, have you never understood it takes people to be corporate? It's what humans do. Apparently it's something you don't.

The "corporate interest" is essentially the human interest. Certain invidious sorts combine as a chorus of concealment on that point.

It doesn't work any too well.

Tell me how Federal ownership of 61% of GM isn't socialism, the ownership (in various guise) of the means of production by the State? How many of the European nations spent time under Socialism? There are damned few that didn't, you know... Liechtenstein. Andorra. Maybe Luxembourg?

SO you cant explain how the essentially private health care system in the US...the payback (at a profit) by nearly every bailed out bank that received TARP funds....a tax system that hasnt change in the last year from what it has been for 90 years, are all examples of socialism?

Ah...so the corporate interest is always in the best interest of the people.

And if they abuse workers, pollute the environment, put questionable products on the market, sell dubious financial instruments.....its all in the best interest of the people.

Who needs govt regulation? How about the people!

BTW, govt regulation was not a creation of the Obama administration.

You essential have one issue of what some of the most narrow minded might consider socialism... the GM bailout.

And you know as well as I, the bail-out was not done in the name of the workers, but to prevent the collapse of the country's largest private employer....on a temporary basis and which is slowly being repaid.

Seriously, dude. Where is all this socialism you, Elder, Beck, Limbaugh and the Tea Baggers are always screaming about?

Damn...you ran away again.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The "corporate interest" is essentially the human interest. Certain invidious sorts combine as a chorus of concealment on that point.

Corporations are not human. They are 'fictitious persons'. They do not have families to care for, so they do not require good schools, affordable health care. They do not breathe, eat, or drink so they do not have to care about safe air, food, or water.

If the world became a toxic stew of chemicals, all that would be left would be cockroaches, Exxon, GM, BP and all the others. This would probably piss off the cockroaches.

Corporations can be 'programmed' to 'care', but in many cases the mantra of 'maximizing profits' means focusing on short term gains at the expense of long term issues like the environment, financial and political stability, etc.