Creation vs. Evolution

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by juju
My point is that religion is based on faith, and science is based on facts and evidence.

I agree with you. But I submit to you that Evolutionary theory is ALSO based on faith, and that it may be wrong, just as Creationism may be wrong. What I'm doing here is trying to present both sides of the argument, using science as much as possible. I'm not trying to prove either side right or wrong, I'm examining the arguments.

If people are going to try to use the bible as evidence of creation, then I feel it's fair to say that it's not evidence at all, because the whole thing is BS. It's based on faith, not fact.

I believe that the bible is a historical book, with portions to be taken literally, as historical fact, as well as story book, with sections that are, well, allegorical.

Note: Historically speaking, many parts of the bible have been proven by corrobberations from other writers of the time as being true statements of fact.

The Bible has just as much "evidence" as the fossil record, or carbon-14 dating, two ideas I WILL be exploring.

But for the sake of the argument, let's agree that the Bible will be the Creationist's primary "evidence", and I'll try to find supportive "science", and we'll examine Evolutionist's "evidence" and find supportive science. That's fair, right?

[hot_pastrami]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I agree that Micro-Evolution occurs and is visible, and is ALSO a fact. IOW, squirrells can evolve into different types of squirrells, but not into fish. Macro evolution is the idea that all life on earth "evolved" from a primordial soup and bacteria. That's the part creationists have a problem with.

Well, there is much evidence to support macro-evolution (lungfish, for example). But maybe God "planted" that evidence on the scene to trick the more intelluctual of humans to not believe in Him. Smart, because having intellectuals in heaven would just take away from the whole experience. Besides, God doesn't want to be losing debates to these intellectuals in heaven on whether or not He exists... that's where black holes come from.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
And again, juju, this thread isn't about whether religion is right or wrong, so please keep those comments out of the discussion.

Well, in many ways, this thread is about whether religion is right or wrong, despite what you say. The idea of creationism is based purely on religion... so if religion is bunk, then it follows that creationism is bunk. If you pose a question whose two possible answers are dependent on contrasting beliefs (religion vs. science), you should expect the debaters to argue the merits of those beliefs.

[juju]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
That's trollbait, and not worth flaming you over, you'd probably just laugh at anyone's attempt to respond to you're comment, so I won't bother.

Nah, it's not my intention to piss people off. It's just how I feel.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by hot_pastrami

Well, there is a distinct, important difference here... when science does not have enough information to answer a question, the hypothesis is not touted as a fact, regardless of how long or how fervently someone believes they know the answer.

I agree, but many many times ET is touted as a fact. Look at juju. He is convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this is the way it happened, when really, ET is just that...a THEORY. Scientists don't know how it happened. They have a set of ideas that they've formed into the theory, but schools, TV shows, and many scientists take it as fact.

And that's wrong.

What's wrong with saying, "Gee, I'm not sure, but it could have happened like this:" instead of presenting it, (like I just saw on the Science Channel (formerly known as the Discovery Channel) as, "The earth formed billions of years ago." We don't know that. It may be true. But then again, it may be true that the earth formed 6,000 years ago, by a God.

But then we get off into the fossil record, carbon 14 dating, etc, again, subjects I'm learning are going to have to be covered sooner rather than later, because of the importance of these ideas in the debate.

*chuckles* I think I've bitten off more than I can chew....

[OnyxCougar]

memo to self:

Transitions
Fossil Record
Carbon-14
Flood

How creationism effects geology/anthropolgy/astronomy and other sciences.

God "faking us out"/occam's razor

Contact/Carl Sagan

Genetics/DNA and "adding material vs losing material"

Dinosaurs/Mammoths/"PreHistoric" man/animals

Different religions (Islam) (Jews) and Genesis

Keeping evolution mainstream by silencing opposing opinions/research/theories

The whole thermodynamic thing

Not being able to reproduce the primordial soup creation theory

The "candle burning" illustration.

Check talkorigins for rebuttals to Creationism science theories.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
What's wrong with saying, "Gee, I'm not sure, but it could have happened like this:" instead of presenting it, (like I just saw on the Science Channel (formerly known as the Discovery Channel) as, "The earth formed billions of years ago." We don't know that. It may be true. But then again, it may be true that the earth formed 6,000 years ago, by a God.

It's the same thing as a religious person saying "God loves us, even those who don't believe in him." It's a simple matter of someone being assertive and confident in what they believe. The difference is that the Science side of the question has actual evidence, where the Religion side does not.

And, I'd say we do know that the Earth was formed billions of years ago, as much as we "know" many other things about our universe, such as the fact that the sun is a ball of fiery gas millions of miles away. When careful, thorough observation of evidence leads us to a conclusion, and there is no credible evidence to the contrary, we call that a "truth." Observation is our one and only tool in determining truth, and so we must trust it, or call everything into question. Such observation tells us that the Earth was created billions of years ago. It tells us that the Earth is definitely older than 6000 years old. The only evidence to the contrary is a very old text from questionable sources which has been re-translated and edited countless times. That makes it's credibility very low.

[juju]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Note: Historically speaking, many parts of the bible have been proven by corrobberations from other writers of the time as being true statements of fact.

The Bible has just as much "evidence" as the fossil record, or carbon-14 dating, two ideas I WILL be exploring.

But for the sake of the argument, let's agree that the Bible will be the Creationist's primary "evidence", and I'll try to find supportive "science", and we'll examine Evolutionist's "evidence" and find supportive science. That's fair, right?

I don't agree. Just because something is written down in a book, and some things in the book happen to be true, that doesn't mean that all of the book is true. There is no evidence in the bible pertaining to this subject.

I agree with you. But I submit to you that Evolutionary theory is ALSO based on faith, and that it may be wrong, just as Creationism may be wrong.

Sure, it's possible either one or both are wrong. But like I said, the important thing is <i>how</i> you decide which is right. It's about standards of proof.

I agree, but many many times ET is touted as a fact. Look at juju. He is convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this is the way it happened, when really, ET is just that...a THEORY. Scientists don't know how it happened. They have a set of ideas that they've formed into the theory, but schools, TV shows, and many scientists take it as fact.

And that's wrong.

The "theory" of evolution refers to the mechanism of evolution -- i.e., <i>how</i> it happened. That it did happen is a fact.

Take gravity, for example. That the phenomenon of gravity occurs is a fact. There is a theory to explain how it occurs.

Fact and theory are two completly separate things, not rungs in a heirachy of certainty.

[dar512]

Originally posted by juju
The "theory" of evolution refers to the mechanism of evolution -- i.e., <i>how</i> it happened. That it did happen is a fact.

You'll have to be a bit more explicit here. What are you stating is a fact?

[juju]

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
From relative nothingness to what we see today, it's hard to believe that it is all just random.

Well, it's not really random at all. That's the idea -- that there are forces that act on things in a consistent manner. The talk.origins faq addresses this, if you're curious.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-...ns.html#chance

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar


I believe that the bible is a historical book, with portions to be taken literally, as historical fact, as well as story book, with sections that are, well, allegorical.

Note: Historically speaking, many parts of the bible have been proven by corrobberations from other writers of the time as being true statements of fact.

Only the bits that involve first century Roman politics. That hardly gives any weight to the bits on the origins of the universe.

[be-bop]

[quote]
*chuckles* I think I've bitten off more than I can chew....

You bet your bottom dollar you have,Have read everyones threads replies and I'm still no further convinced to either argument.
If you look at how random and violent the universe is with regards to comets.black holes things crashing into things and say that some omnipotent creator is in charge of it all and it's all going to plan then all I can say is"sack the juggler" cos i don't want to be wiped out by some friggen bit of rock crashing into our planet.Because the Man/Women/God who's in charge decided to have a day of rest.

Then I remember my friend's wife who became a Jehovah's witness who had her elder/guru whatever, to dinner who quite seriously tried for around 3-4 hours to convince us that there was nothing true about evolution that it was all false and all evidence such as fossils etc were fakes.(The Devils work) I mean this guy was very serious.
Shit we will never Know for sure who is right or wrong and in the end does it matter we are here,everone is a long time dead so why not live it to the full because tomorrow you could be....etc

[JeepNGeorge]

If you believe in total evoloution, what did we start out from? What was there at the very nano second of the explosion that started us on this rat race? Where did that primordial soup come from that became so dense it exploded sending whole galaxies out into the emptiness of space? Science can get very close to the beginning of time, but they cannot as of yet get to the very instant of the 'bang'. There are a lot of possible explinations, but in the end you are just going to have to believe either one without much solid proof. I mean I don't think theres a movie clip floating out in space somewhere that shows what happened. If you believe in the higher power or not your still going to have to make that belief on some possibles instead of absolutes.

[juju]

Originally posted by dar512
You'll have to be a bit more explicit here. What are you stating is a fact?

That's a good question. I keep getting interrupted here, though (damn life!), so I'll try to answer tommorrow. :)

[juju]

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
If you believe in total evoloution, what did we start out from? What was there at the very nano second of the explosion that started us on this rat race?

Evolution doesn't address this. That's astronomy. :)

[JeepNGeorge]

Yes, but it's very crucial to my theory of evolution. Did we all descend from the same basic building blocks? If so what was it? I know that tends to be more astronomical in nature, but it's at that moment in time that evolution started right? What was there to evolve to where we are today? Nobody knows for sure, so we have to believe in something. Maybe we did start from absolute nothing, but that's as hard for me to believe as it is for some people to believe there was a higher power that had some hand in bringing about the big bang.

Sometime, somewhere something had to be in existence for us to be where we are today. What I want to know is where did that matter come from. How was it formed?