What are the legitimate functions of government?

[elSicomoro]

Better. Wanted to make sure you weren't bagging on the person already.

No no no. I usually wait at least a week after their first post before I totally tear into 'em

[Griff]

He he. This will be a long post. I'm not signing on for that but as soon as archeologists show me something different I'll post it.

Og realized that he was stronger than Ig. He went to Igs leanto and, established mans first government. Ig and Bo overthrew that government by establishing a peoples committee, they went to Ogs cave beat him about the head and took his stuff. Over the years, the system had different window dressings applied to it usually sold as an improvement over the previous governments failings. Athens attacks Sparta, Aztecs slaughter get slaughtered, the Czar gets rolled. Irish and Scots get displaced by the English go to america and slaughter Native Americans.The North taxes the South. Euro govs set up colonies. Japan follows suit, Truman goes atomic. Australia reeducates the Bushmen. Commies get back Hong Kong, Canada gives free ride to rich Asian emigrees. America bombs Iraq for 11 years is suprised when get bombed. Government is stupid brute force, period.

I think I may have missed a gov or two there, but thats Muses deal not mine.

[Muse]

I'll admit, my orginal statement was pretty broad, yet I still have the same view, I'll just rephrase it as someone suggested before. The one common thing about governments is that they exploit the people. They never truly represent the views of their citizens and have their own desires when in leadership. This can be seen through the corruption of almost every government in our current world by corporations.

[Muse]

.....haha tear into me......go for it.......i won't cry

So what you're saying, then, is that because governments are made up of people, they make mistakes and are plagued by human characteristics, and are therefore imperfect?

To which, I would say "That is correct".

[quote]The one common thing about governments is that they exploit the people.

What is a government? How do we define such a thing?

Were Native American leaders considered to be governing of their tribes? I think that's what I'd consider them. Yet, I don't believe they worked to exploit their people.

I think what I'd say is this:

Government is inherently flawed because it is, and should be, made up of human beings. However, government is, at worst, a necessary evil, because of the protection it offers its people and the bargaining power, for a nation, that comes with the citizens' will as a collective whole.

Your original question was something to the effect of "Is government necessary?"

My answer to you is "Stop taking advantage of anything being furnished by the government for 6 months and then get back to me."

Originally posted by Muse
.....haha tear into me......go for it.......i won't cry

To understand those comments, you need to understand my history on the Cellar. Click my "profile" button, then click "Search for all posts by this user" in the upper right corner. Read all of them, all of the posts they were in response to and all of the responses to mine.

If you're not up for that, here's the short story: I have a history of vehemently defending a position I know to be correct, and pushing people to back up their baseless claims. I'm not doing that with you because I attempt to be courteous until the person has settled in and knows what they're in for. Since you don't, and you haven't been particularly idiotic or absurd yet, I have no reason to. I imagine we'll butt heads in the future...

Until then, welcome to the Cellar. I know I'm not alone in wishing you a lengthy and enjoyable stay.

[Muse]

First off, for your belief about Native American Culture. The only tribes which used government were on the North West Coast such as the Kwakiutl, Tlingit and Haida. These were also the only colonies who exploited their people through the wanton lust for more material goods. As for the tribes of the plains, woodland etc. They were lead and counselled by their elders and shamans. Not governed. Rules and regulations weren't imposed by the elders, they were morally developed through the whole society. An elder would not dictate to the tibe where and when they have to go, they would councel them on it and in turn each memeber of the society would choose.
This differs from our society in the fact that we have a supposed "democratic" government who forces policies upon us which we must accept under the threat of violence and aggression.

As for the human nature of governents, the reason that they are flawed by human characteristics is the reason why the have and will not ever function properly. They are not a necessary evil. Societies have functioned in the industrial age without governments ie during the Spanish Revolution. We do not need governents to dictate policies about trade to us. These can be simply maintained by the companies themselves and society as a whole which the government does not represent.

blah..i feel that's enough for now..ello to you as well

Do you drive on Interstate Highways? Have you ever?

Have you ever used the dollar to purchase something?

Is it likely that you will be robbed by a band of criminals who are ransacking your neighborhood?

Do you appreciate the fact that you probably will never see a war waged in your front yard?

Have you ever posted an unpopular view on an Internet messageboard, secure in the knowledge that you can't be arrested and executed just for saying it?

Can you guarantee me these freedoms and comforts and abilities without a government?

[Muse]

Can you guarantee to me that the U.S. government is not in the war on Afghanistan for oil?

Can you guarantee to me that the U.S. government did not kill over 250 000 civilians in the Gulf War. For that they were convicted of 19 War Crimes charges by the International War Crimes Tribunal ie using illegal weapons such as napalm on civilians and instigating the war in the first place.

Can you guarntee to me that your country is one of freedom and democracy when it imprisons hundreds of afghani decent after september 11th even though the weren't and still haven't been found guilty of any crimes. They are simply being held due to their race.




and to answer your questions.....yes i have driven on a highway, do we need governments to build the highways or to we need buisnesses to?

yes i have used money to purchase things since our government makes self sustianment so hard to accomplish.

.......crime was not existent within the anarchistic society of the Spanish Revolution...

Originally posted by Muse
They are simply being held due to their race.

Can you substantiate this? Do you think that maybe they are being held on immigration offenses? Can you point me to policy, written or unwritten, which says "Ye shall detain all sand niggers"? Maybe the fact that those who are being held are of Arab/Afghan descent has something to do with the fact that most terrorism against U.S. citizens (including the 9/11 terrorist attacks) has been performed by those from the Middle Eastern arabian states? I personally have no problem with Arabs or Afghanis or Japanese or anyone. But consider this:

If only black people committed crimes, would it be any wonder that the jails were occupied only by black people?

So is it surprising that, when most terrorist acts against the United States are committed by Middle Easterners, Middle Easterners are the focus of our investigations?

do we need governments to build the highways or to we need buisnesses to?

Who do you think is going to pay those businesses? Fact is, contractors build the roads already, after the government negotiates a fair price for it. Could we, as only a group of citizens, coordinate that?

since our government makes self sustianment so hard to accomplish

No. You used money to buy things since self sustainment is just plain fucking hard to accomplish, period. You don't need a job - you could spend all day farming and feed yourself. Well, go for it, buddy. Trade some of your corn for a cow so you can have some milk. Trade some of that milk for some chickens so you can have eggs for breakfast. Make no mistake, you can live reliant on yourself, but it's not easy. No one's stopping you. If you think our government is killing it for you, I'm sure there are places in Africa or Asia where you could try to make it work. But I promise, it won't be easy.

crime was not existent within the anarchistic society of the Spanish Revolution

Come on. Not one murder? Not one rape? Not one theft? Not one jaywalker? Not a single one?

[russotto]

Originally posted by Muse
Can you guarantee to me that the U.S. government is not in the war on Afghanistan for oil?

You mean 9/11/2001 isn't enough? Or the paucity of oil in Afghanistan?

Can you guarantee to me that the U.S. government did not kill over 250 000 civilians in the Gulf War. For that they were convicted of 19 War Crimes charges by the International War Crimes Tribunal ie using illegal weapons such as napalm on civilians and instigating the war in the first place.

I'm guessing the US does not recognize this body, therefore was unrepresented. It's fairly obvious that the US did not instigate the Gulf War, unless you consider the Iraqi seizure of Kuwait to be a fait accompli at the time, and then the re-invasion to be an entirely separate act -- which is a rather idiotic way of looking at it.

[Muse]

Rusutto, to begin with, I'm not quite sure where you live but i'm taking it that it is in the U.S. This is due to the fact that if you live somewhere where the media has not yet been completely manipulated by the U.S. Governent you would realise that there would be an international outcry to the retaliation which is taking place. Numerous accounts have been recently released dealing with certain facts such as that it is impossible to mobilise the military might of the U.S. in 2 months. The operations planned for Dessert Storm alone took over 4. There's also the fact that the supposed account of Bin Laden on Video released would never be admissable in a court. This is becasue it can easily be forged, students in Britain recently made one of Bush.
Also, although there is no oil in Afghanistan, the U.S. prior to Sept 11th was trying to get the Taliban to put a pipe line through their country. The US had brought Taliban leaders into the U.S. to negotiate this. However they declined.

Second of all, the U.S. does acknowledge the International War Crimes Triubunal, it has several prominent members on the board such as Michael Ratner, USA (Attorney, former director of the Center for Constitutional Rights, past president of the National Lawyers Guild.) Deborah Jackson, USA (First vice president of the American Association of Jurists, former director of National Conference of Black Lawyers.) and many more. By the way the report was written by Ramsey Clark who once served as the Attorney General
One of the 19 crimes the U.S. was convicted of was "The United States engaged in a pattern of conduct beginning in or before 1989 intended to lead Iraq into provocations justifying U.S. military action against Iraq and permanent U.S. military domination of the Gulf. " Another one being "2. President Bush from August 2, 1990, intended and acted to prevent any interference with his plan to destroy Iraq economically and militarily."

I hope this enlightens you. I'd be happy to deal with any more questions. Oh one final thing, the reason nothing has happened to those convicted, is to well look at who they are and the power they hold George Bush, J. Danforth Quayle, James Baker,
Richard Cheney, William Webster, Colin Powell,
Norman Schwarzkopf etc

One quick point:

The mobilization for Desert Storm was <b>enormous</b> compared to the current conflict in Afghanistan. Also, advances and optimizations have definitely been made in the last, oh, ELEVEN YEARS since Desert Storm. Considering what has been done, I don't think that the month between the attack on the WTC/Pentagon/Flight 93 and the beginning of strikes on Afghanistan on October 7 is too long to get some planes down there to drop bombs. We're not talking full-scale mobilization to invade a fucking country, Muse.

[Muse]

dhamsaic, I can substaniate that they are being held due to their race. Currently the prime example being Shakir ( something i'll get the name to you later if you'd like )who has been held for 4 months with no legal council and has only just recently been able to contact his family. He is a Canadian doctor also.

Your statement of "Could we, as only a group of citizens, coordinate that? " Belittles yourself. To me that shows an example of a personality which only wishes to be led and not to think.

Self sustaining yourself within our society in North America although possible is burdened by the fact that the government permeates everything. Although in the future I do plan to live in a commune for awhile, I believe that change is needed in our current state.

In the Spanish revolution crime as you stated before such as looting ones neighbours, was not present. The crimes being conduced were by those of the communists and fascists attacking the Anarchists.