Divorce

Originally Posted by Deuce

rkzenrage: Dude. "bait"?? wtf? I'm glad I don't live in a world where a call is bait. I can't. I can't function in a world where that level of paranoia is required to function.

YOu're right on one score, however. I do want to ensure that our son isn't deprived of the chance to be fathered, by me. To me that means, as a prerequisite, as a minimum, showing up. Being present. I want to be with him every day. I couldn't see him today and it kills me.

It is not good for a boy to not have a father.

Who said anything about a son not having a father? In fact I was the one trying to tell you how to make sure you don't slip-up in that area.
Be paranoid about everything else but the person who is trying to actually do what you are worried about... don't listen to me at all, this will be my last post.
I have been around this kind of stuff my whole life and know how these restraining orders work and know that people will create openings for others to walk through them on their own so they will have that on their side in court or deliberations later.
If she is playing this to win and you are just trying to get to talk to her and spend every second with your son every day that you can and she knows this, you are fucked. Have fun, because you are not in this for the long haul.
A divorce is not about feelings it is about assets and privileges and who "deserves" them and there are no rules as to how the perception of that is obtained and it seems to me that you are completely unaware as to what is happening here.
I gave you advice based on experience, those orders are nothing to play with, every word you say can be turned and used against you....
But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.

[Deuce]

Yes, I have seen him, I have spoken to him. I miss him terribly. He has told me that he misses me, and that kills me. I should not be so absent that I'm missed. He needs me, he needs his father. He needs his mother too. But right now I'm being shut out, prevented from spending time with him, and that's not right. That's not good for a young boy.

I want what's best for our son, and that means being there, but I am not there.

[smurfalicious]

How come you won't divulge why it is she thinks you're a danger to her and her son? Restraining orders usually require some sort of evidence - they're just issued willy-nilly on any old whim.

Perhaps getting to the root of that will give you the solution to the problem.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by smurfalicious

How come you won't divulge why it is she thinks you're a danger to her and her son? Restraining orders usually require some sort of evidence - they're just issued willy-nilly on any old whim.

Perhaps getting to the root of that will give you the solution to the problem.

A woman needs say no more than "I'm scared" to get a restraining order on her husband - thats a fact!

[yesman065]

Deuce - You gotta shake this off and fight your ass off to get this shit done and over with as quickly as possible - you need to accept the reality that she doesn't want you in her life - AND that has nothing to do with your son. They are two completely seperate issues. The fact that you are being temporarily shut out TOTALLY SUX, but that is temporary - Don't lose sight of that. I lost all three of my kids for months - I didn't even talk to my daughter for almost 6 months! That time has passed for me and I see much clearer now. I talk to every one of them every day.
You need unemotional counsel to guide you through this. You are not in a state of mind to make the best and/or most rational decisions - you yourself have admitted this. You need someone to take the wheel for a bit to let your emotions catch up with your intellect.

I've been there - right there where you are crying non-stop with no feelings other than dispair, no joy, no happiness, no energy. Just a lot of nothingness and negativity. All I can say is STOP IT now and focus on the future and the many wonderful times you will spend with your son as soon as you get all this crap over with. Get the lawyer, get the help and get this shit done.

Then get your ass over here cuz we're goin tuna fishin or bottom fishin together on the boat - whatever HE wants! You and your son with me and my boys.
That, my friend, is an open invitation and a promise.
F
O
C
U
S

[smurfalicious]

(I'm just keeping in mind there's 3 sides to every story: his, hers, and the truth. We're only getting 1 side. And I smell something fishy. And it's not ********'s twat this time.)

[DanaC]

kgg this isn't about condemning her. This is about ensuring that if what she is doing is being done as part of the 'divorce game' then deuce protects himself.

I couldn't give a shit abotu her, because I don't know her and she's never posted here. Doesn't mean I think she's in the wrong, she might be in the right. Not the point: Deuce is here, he's a dwellar, we want him to be okay. The advice here in this thread is offered in that spirit.

Also...the woman has taken out court orders against him. She has prevented him from seeing his children. It does not really matter whether her reasons were valid/understandable to us or not. Right now, anger is deuce's friend. She is not.

Smurf, I see your point, and indeed I have asked the same question. Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Deuce and his (ex) wife get to the end of this process with as little trauma as possible. What matters is that at the end of this process there will be a degree of peace and stability in which to reflect on it.

[Aliantha]

I'm glad to see you hanging in there Deuce. Think about getting an order allowing you visitation with your son. That should be a relatively simple thing to do.

[kgg]

Obviously the restraining order doesn't say "no contact whatsoever" as he has stated, he has seen and talked to his son. So that is a good thing. Obviously she is not being vindictive otherwise it would be no contact period, over and out. Yes, there are two sides to every story, I agree and even though he is a dwellar, she still has a story that perhaps has truth to it as well.

She is being portrayed as someone who is saying "I;m scared" just to be mean. I don't get that feeling.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

Obviously the restraining order doesn't say "no contact whatsoever" as he has stated, he has seen and talked to his son. So that is a good thing. Obviously she is not being vindictive otherwise it would be no contact period, over and out.

Wait a minute. Where did I say that the restraining order says "no contact whatsoever"?

You're absolutely right about contact with our son. That is a very good thing, a boy needs his father. There are some things a mother can't do for a adolescent boy. For him to be the best, most complete person possible, he needs both parents. There are some things that only a Dad can do. And the overwhelming evidence of the harm suffered by children across the country from not having a Dad around is terrifying. And tragic in this case, since I am not being a deadbeat dad, I **want** to be there, but I am being prevented from being there. That is wrong, and directly harmful to our son.

As to the vindictiveness.... there is plenty hurt to go around here, and adults can fight mean. But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.

Originally Posted by kgg

Yes, there are two sides to every story, I agree and even though he is a dwellar, she still has a story that perhaps has truth to it as well.

Well, for sure everybody here has had an earful of my side of the story. Obviously, I can't tell her side of the story. ***That's exactly*** the problem, she doesn't believe I understand her, and I guess I don't. I wish she'd tell her side of the story. Undoubtedly there is truth to her side as well. But every time I try to repeat back to her what I understand she's saying, I get it wrong. And when she tells me what I'm thinking and meaning, that's often wrong. It is fucked up. You want her side of the story, ask her. I've tried explaining it here, apparently I can't make myself understood to y'all any better than I can make myself understood to her.

Originally Posted by kgg

She is being portrayed as someone who is saying "I;m scared" just to be mean. I don't get that feeling.

I'm curious, what feeling do you get?

Here's my take on it. First the bad news. She can be mean. Some of the things she says to me,


heh.

I put up a whole freakin thread about it. Y'know what it's called? I want to die. You could look it up. I dont' know if you've seen it or posted there... She has an ability, unmatched in the whole world, to hurt me more than anyone or anything else. And it's because I have deliberately left my heart open to her. I love her. While I remain open to sharing my love for her and the possiblity for her love for me, I remain open as well for the hurt. I could protect myself from such hurt, by closing my heart. But I won't. I can't.

I have taken an enormous amount of shit from a lot of people who say why put up with that?, read the thread here for yourself. I can't explain it any better than that. I love her, and that make me vulnerable to her.

Now the .. what? less bad news. I think she's saying "I'm scared" because she is scared. But unreasonably so. The things she's told me she's scared about all hinge on how someday I'll blow up and hurt everybody. She's told me she's lain awake with 9-1- already dialed with her finger on the 1, cause she's afraid I'm going to try to kill her.

That just makes me want to cry.

Kill her? Somebody who's afraid like that, how can *I* put them at ease? I'm the very source of the fear? If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears.

I don't think it's because she is trying to be mean, despite the fact that the results of her actions hurt me far more than she knows, and hurts our son far more than she knows. I think she's acting, no, overreacting out of fear. But those fears are completely unfounded. I don't know how to tell her that. I wish I did.

[kgg]

Not you saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.

You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other. I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean. Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited. It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally. She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.

being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away. 16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it. I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

Not you saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.

You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other.

While I do think that it is bad for one parent to be mean to the other, you really missed what I said.

Originally Posted by Deuce

But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.

It is the welfare of our son that I am most concerned about. These two are so closely linked that they're difficult to separate. But it is a greater tragedy that our son suffers because we're unable to get along, or because we're unable to manage our conflict in a constructive manner.

Originally Posted by kgg

I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean.

No, I have said that there's hurt on both sides. There's so much hurt that we can't see our way back to each other, back to the love and family that we share. rkzenrage has already given up on me. My wife has given up on me. I haven't given up. I'm working through the pain to reach her. Through *my* pain. Trying not to increase *her* pain. I have never said that she's the only one being mean... I hurt and she hurts.

Originally Posted by kgg

Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited.

Ok, I guess I misunderstood you about the "no contact" thing in the other quote. But I have to ask you again, which of my posts "seem pretty mean spirited"? For sure, I was writing at times when I was crushed with pain, drowned with fear. But I went back and re-read them, and I don't see the meanness you're talking about.

I'm asking because I've heard this before. "That hurt, that was mean." I must have some blind spot here, and dammit, it's a problem for me. I have never posted anything with that intention. What did I post that was mean? Can you explain that to me, please?

Originally Posted by kgg

It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally.

Nor can I imagine it, not even unintentionally. She is a very strong person, and fiercely protective of our children. I admire that. And there is no limit to the love I have for our children. Right now, the hurt our youngest son is suffering, and believe me, he is suffering, is from our inability to manage our conflict constructively. In fact, it's so bad that our fighting hurts him, and the fighting that's leading to divorce hurts him. And this is likely just the opening act. Actually living apart will be awful, expensive, and destructive. It will be like dying. There will be a death of the family our son has known all his life, the only family structure he knows. If that pain is avoidable, and I am convinced that it is possible to avoid it, that I should withhold nothing in my efforts to do so.

Originally Posted by kgg

She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.

being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away.

Yes, sadly, you're right. I regret that I agree with you, she is hurting. And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.

And, yes, I am hurting too.

I want to give her every consideration, I want compassion and forgiveness and love to flow again. It is there. But I don't know how to get to it.

Originally Posted by kgg

16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it.

I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.

I am filled with compassion for her, and I think there is some compassion in her for me, but that it is hidden behind a protective wall, made of bricks of anger mortared together by pain. Anger and pain topped by fear makes a redoubtable defense. I love her, and I weep for her pain and fear. But I don't know how to salve it.

They say that you learn from your mistakes, but there are so many mistakes to be made, that I don't think I could fit them all into my one lifetime. Better I should learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. You paint a sympathetic picture, and your last remark intrigues me. If you are willing, I would like to hear about your experience. Perhaps I could avoid the mistakes you lived through. I could sure use the help. I would like to benefit from your increased wisdom.

[Cicero]

I think Smurf and I know from experience here. Professional and otherwise. Please, please listen Deuce.

[DanaC]

But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.

rk, I think you are being unfair there.

[Cicero]

I'm sorry Deuce...your world turned into a paranoid thriller when your own wife said that you were a threat to her and your family. It's called reality...paranoid...yes...but also your new reality.

Either way- she shouldn't be talking to you. I don't know what you did. But she has got to stop- this can get you in deep doo-doo.