Why is Obama Black?

[Undertoad]

Modern engines are twice as powerful and efficient as engines 30 years ago, but WE refuse to buy vehicles that could get 45 MPH because WE do not want small, light, unsafe vehicles that do 0-60 in 15 seconds and can't haul shit. A car company that builds them will be seen as cheap and inferior no matter how good the build quality. It is as simple as that.

"They can do better" and "they" do, but the Smart Car (41 mpg, $12k) is not considered "them" because it is not considered "us". "We" would not drive such a thing.

[Lamplighter]

Our upper $ bedroom-community seems a perfect situation for such cars
and only 8-10 miles of 2-lane highway commuter driving.

The west coast distributor of Smart Cars was located in our town,
and a lot were seen on the roads around here.
The City even installed some curbside electric outlets for them.
Now...not so much, and I think UT is on mark about why we are not buying them.

My concern has to do with what happens in an MVA with all the other "tanks" coming down the road.

[tw]

To expand on the stupidity are four wheel drive vehicles. The most dangerous moving vehicle in snow, ice, etc is the four wheel drive. Four wheels driving a vehicle means tires fight each other. It only means more traction to get started. And the most dangerous of all moving vehicles. But when told by a pretty bimbo on Action News that you must have four wheel drive, then a majority are that easily brainwashed.

Like the 260 Hp car (when 1970 big block V-8s only did 160), we *need* to waste more. Gasoline at $8 a gallon is so dirt cheap.

Remember when gasoline went from $0.85 to $2? Remember when so many said SUV sales would drop? Go back and read. One was warning about SUV sales not harmed. Especially those largest SUVs. Why? Gasoline at $6 still costs almost nothing. Do you think logically? Or as deceived as those complaining about prices increasing from $0.85 to $2? Gasoline is so cheap that the $1.15 increase was near zero. And now it is $3 per gallon - still absurdly cheap as SUVs - some of the most dangerous gas guzzlers - continue to increase market share.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

To expand on the stupidity are four wheel drive vehicles. The most dangerous moving vehicle in snow, ice, etc is the four wheel drive. Four wheels driving a vehicle means tires fight each other. It only means more traction to get started. And the most dangerous of all moving vehicles.

I find it very hard to believe a reasonably intelligent engineer could be this clueless about 4 wheel drive vehicles.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I find it very hard to believe a reasonably intelligent engineer could be this clueless about 4 wheel drive vehicles.

If honest, you would have said why it is wrong. You cannot. So we have your cheap shot denial. Four wheel drives traction to get started. Once moving, its wheels fight each other resulting in less traction - especially on ice. Which is why early four wheel drives required the driver to get out and release the hubs.

But then the same bimbos who recommend four wheel drive also recommend those back saver shovels - that are the worst type of snow shovel for a back.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Modern engines are twice as powerful and efficient as engines 30 years ago, but WE refuse to buy vehicles that could get 45 MPH because WE do not want small, light, unsafe vehicles that do 0-60 in 15 seconds and can't haul shit.

Which is what the dumbest anti-Americans were saying in the 1970s. To get 24 MPG, they said, we must all drive Pintos. Well my Honda Accord routinely exceeds 30 MPG even in local driving. And Hondas and Toyota are not very innovative.

The difference between an anti-American and those who innovate. The largest Cadillac could easily be doing 30 MPG. Only those trained in fear think fuel economy means smaller.

But again. Put 10 gallons into a car. Well over 8 of those ten gallons is wasted energy. Does nothing to move a car. Since only one in ten gallons does anything productive, then that must always be true? Yes according to myopia from business school graduates and a majority who believe their lies.

Why are we all not driving Pintos? In part, because the Pintos' 21 MPG was how the most myopic viewed a 24 MPG car. Largest Honda's and Toyotas routinely exceed that due to technologies developed in early 1970 in America. But those who said we would all have to drive Pintos were the wacko extremists and George Jr's of their time.

[Undertoad]

Did I really write MPH. I meant MPG. And I said 45 MPG, not 30; so even you, tw, have failed to make the choice of a higher MPG vehicle.

Perhaps you should consider the Chevy Cruze... its engine does 98 HP per liter and gets 36 MPG highway.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Perhaps you should consider the Chevy Cruze... its engine does 98 HP per liter and gets 36 MPG highway.

Go back and read what I posted about the Cruze and the history of a Chevy plant in Lordstown OH that makes it.

[Undertoad]

On wet grass, mud, loose gravel, sand, snow, ice, anywhere the traction is iffy, the tires are fighting the surface more than each other. Maybe you haven't driven one in those conditions? I had the cheapest 4x4 pickup with no load and it was indeed miraculous in snow, including when turning. It had no differential and thus was dangerous in dry conditions.

[jinx]

Newer vehicles most people would have use for, don't even have low range, and the all wheel drive setups use viscous couplings and computers to make it a no-brainer.

[DanaC]

The main problem we have over here with 4 wheel drives, is that they are invariably used in inappropriate places and for inappropriate purposes.

I live in a tiny village; with lanes designed for single lane horse and carriage use. When I walk past the village school the place looks like a fucking 4x4 convention. Massive cars, using massive amounts of petrol, to ferry a small child the ten minutes it takes to get to school. Thereby making the roads significantly more dangerous for any children whose parents elect to walk them to school.

That's one of the problems with using rangerovers and landrovers in a built up, or narrow laned area: in the event that a child is hit, the chances of fatality are that much more if they're hit by one of these cars, which tend to have much higher bumpers and bigger grills.

[Undertoad]

Wow Jinx, that Jeep video is awesome! And points out exactly what's going on. All four tires have to turn at different speeds or not turn at all. In my truck that would have been impossible. Most excellent.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Either each wheel operates independently. And then tires do not fight each other. And then one tire that slips is the only wheel turning. So, four wheel drives interconnect all wheels so that all spin together. So that no one wheel spins with other not spinning. Wheels must be interconnected to that all wheels turn even when one slips.

This is where you're fucked up, 4 wheel drive does NOT interconnect the 4 wheels to all turn together. 4 wheel drive is a misnomer, it's actually 2 axle drive. Each axle has 2 wheels (except dualies but forget them), and between the 2 wheels is a differential, like all cars.

The differential has three jobs:
•To aim the engine power at the wheels
•To act as the final gear reduction in the vehicle, slowing the rotational speed of the transmission one final time before it hits the wheels
•To transmit the power to the wheels while allowing them to rotate at different speeds (This is the one that earned the differential its name.)

So with 2 wheel drive, 1 wheel is actually powering the car, and with 4 wheel drive it's two wheels powering the car. Only certain race cars that operate on loose (dirt) surfaces, or only turn at slow speeds (drag racers), have a locked differential (called a spool) to turn both wheels on the axle together.

Now many (most?) 4 wheel drive vehicles use a limited slip differential on at least the rear axle. Either Eaton's clutch type (like GM's posi-traction), a ratchet type (like Ford's Detroit Locker) or the newer Torsen geared type (developed for front wheel drive cars) so that when the wheel powering the axle loses traction, the power is transfered to the other wheel on that axle. Newer (read high end, more expensive) systems, especially full time all wheel drive systems, use a limited slip differential between the front and rear axles.

Many 4 wheel drive systems, especially in trucks, are designed and built so the front axle turns a tiny bit faster than the rear axle. This is for straight line stability at speed. On loose surfaces it's not a problem, but on dry (good traction) surfaces it can cause increase rear tire wear. This is where that "wheels fight each other" shit comes from. Actually a couple of pounds difference in tire pressure can cause the same condition, but it's not a serious safety issue.

Originally Posted by DanaC

I live in a tiny village; with lanes designed for single lane horse and carriage use. When I walk past the village school the place looks like a fucking 4x4 convention. Massive cars, using massive amounts of petrol, to ferry a small child the ten minutes it takes to get to school. Thereby making the roads significantly more dangerous for any children whose parents elect to walk them to school.

This has nothing to do with 4 wheel drive, it's a social issue. Scandinavia is loaded (dominated?) by 4 wheel drive vehicles that are no bigger than the 2 wheel drive counterparts. Subaru, BMW, VW, Ford, Audi, Infiniti, Volvo, Mitsubishi, are some of the companies making 4, or all, wheel drive cars no bigger than the 2 wheel drive crowd.


Now the newer electronically controlled, viscous coupling, 4 wheel/all wheel drives sound like the perfect choice for being prepared. BUT, the reality is the are more expensive to buy, and to operate. More moving parts to buy initially, more shit to wear out, more systemic parasitic power losses, although the new systems have cut those losses to a minimum. Plus the fact that in more heavily populated parts of civilization, the roads are cleared pretty quickly, usually less than 24 hours (bare pavement in 36) in most cases.

Therefore, the cheaper/smarter choice, unless you do some serious off roading (damn few do), or you're a survivalist, is leave the 4 wheel drives to the EMTs, or people that absolutely-positively-have-to-get-there, and stay the hell home and have orgies, on the few days a year the roads are bad... or learn to drive in bad weather.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

This is where you're fucked up, 4 wheel drive does NOT interconnect the 4 wheels to all turn together. 4 wheel drive is a misnomer, it's actually 2 axle drive. Each axle has 2 wheels (except dualies but forget them), and between the 2 wheels is a differential, like all cars.

Correct until you got to the part about "like all cars If it had a differential like all cars, then the only wheel that spins is the stuck one. So that other wheels will also turn, that 4 wheel drive differential must interconnect (lock) the wheels. Also called limited slip differentials. And more infighting between front and rear wheels.

When trucks had hubs, that interconnection was rock solid. If you drove that vehicle at 30 MPH, you could easily roll the vehicle. So that the today's four wheel drives do not routinely roll over, the differential is not locked as firmly. But all wheels must still be interconnected – causing reduce moving safety. It has a limited slip differential. That means wheels still fight each other. And also increase tire wear.

Why tire wear? Because the wheels on four wheel drive are constantly fighting each other. Increasing tire wear. Reduced traction and control at/above 30 MPH. The compromise. Reduce moving safety so that the vehicle can more easily get started.

Safety is secondary on vehicles designed to have less ground clearance than a Humvee and also be less stable. One icy roads, the last vehicle I want to be in is a four wheel drive where all wheels are fighting each other due to limited slip differentials and another interlock between from and rear wheels.

But those local gossip bimbos tell us to believe differently. As you noted, the limited slip differential is why four wheel drive wheels fight each other - causing less control and increased tire wear. That means less control and less safety. That means less braking and tires more easily losing traction during emergency manuevers. Same thing that increases tire wear also means less control when moving on icy roads.

Which do we believe? Advertising or reality? As DanaC demonstrates, a four wheel drive is not about needing to go off road. In most every case, it's about ego. And this myth that such vehicles are safer because they are higher, etc.

A nearby family suffered last week on the way to FL. She caught the left edge of the left lane on I-95 in SC. Because such trucks are so unstable, it flipped when it snapped back onto the road. Only the most unsafe vehicles with less stability flip more often. One of two kids were killed. These trucks are some of the least stable vehicles. Add four wheel drive to make them even less safe in inclement weather.

[Sundae]

Same here Dani - not re the school (as they have a VERY effective reward system for walk/ cycle/ scoot/ car-share, which must be a nightmare for working parents) but the closer you get to London the more "Chelsea Tractors" you see. Sat in traffic jams, within the Congestion Charge area, carrier/ gym bags on the back seat and SPOTLESSLY clean inside and out. I could be wrong, the fit young lady driving could just have come back from Scotland and stopped off at the garage for a spot of OCD car cleaning. Or from driving along Blackpool Beach, or whale spotting in Wales. But the good chance is she (alone in her 4x4) has just been shopping and perhaps on a running machine.

It's not up to me to tell people how to spend their money, but it seems a shame when having it affects everyone else (ie those with money can ignore the spirit of the Congestion Charge because they can afford to, and are often found in bus lanes because they just HAD to "pop in and pick something up!")

I confess I would have two cars if I won the lottery. My town car (probably a Beetle or a Nissan Micra) for 90% of the time and my big fuck-off Jeep for bad weather and pulling people out of ditches. Each for its own time and meticulously cared for in between.

Oh and a driver...
Am I straying too far from the point now...?