Kidnapped girl found 18 years later - Page 10

Sundae · 10-03-2009, 03:50 PM

Honestly, Mo, I can't remember your stance on capital punishment.
I suspect it's the majority Brit opinion. Which is narrowly NO - despite Telegraph and Mail attempts to skew it otherwise.

But I've answered your questions as if they were posed by someone I didn't know (which I always do when it's something I have a strong opinion about) because even if you're playing devil's advocate, I'll choose my ownside anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Is it more or less acceptable for a soldier to be killed in action than for an innocent person to be executed?

There is choice and subsequent payment involved. And it seems (only from my reading here) that there is some underlying belief too. An innocent executed - has no such belief, no such drive, no such meaning. An atheist executed in such a way simply has their single chance at life terminated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

If you believe in one or more deities, then the chances are you believe that an executed innocent has gone to better place, and if you don't, then the chances are you believe the executed innocent no longer exists, so why do they matter any more...so what's the problem?

Shoot them all and let God sort them out is one of the most awful mottos of those who want to abrogate their actions. Thou Shalt Not Kill, should be a hard and fast rule. It was a Commandment handed down by God himsef. That's pretty damned important. Jesus said Turn the Other Cheek. HE was the Son of God. He preached a parable about the Samaritan (untouchable) where the man who was blessed was the man who did not pass on by. And yet some of the modern churches embrace those who want to hurt gay people, claim the devil's influence or other derogatory term for not believing in their sect/ religion, call other religions dirty names, form militia.

I've isolated Christianity here, but I include all the major religions that judge people on sexuality, differences because of gender and books written in another country before your great great grandmothers were born. Murder, rape, theft - yeah we all know those were bad. But if we're going back to Leviticus for our opinions on gay sex, why not have the same rules across the board? Dwellars are well read enough, and intelligent enough to know what I mean. I wish the rest of th country was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

If you reject CP on the grounds that it is irreversible and cruel, in what way to you envisage years of wrongful maximum security detention less irreversible and less cruel?
Just askin'.....

A good point.
America would not be welcomed into the EU on that point.
I know you're not really bothered.
But it means you're denied entry to the Eurovision Song Contest.
Ah well, you wouldn't win anyway. We know - we have an even better record in Euro Pop than American artists (we know the market exists for a start) and we still get nul pointe.

monster · 09-09-2009, 10:33 PM

Why?

TheMercenary · 09-09-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Why?

One is a volunteer.

piercehawkeye45 · 09-09-2009, 11:15 PM

They are dying for a cause and they know what they are getting into.

monster · 09-09-2009, 11:50 PM

So the executed innocents...... are they not dying for a cause?

And did they not volunteer by living and voting/not voting in a state with CP? ANd even if they're anti CP and protest violently about it, what were they doing that made them a suspect? isn't doing something dodgy in a state with the DP akin to volunteering?

Flint · 09-10-2009, 11:32 AM

I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.

As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person."

If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.

As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person."

If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so.

It is completely a moral delimma for society at large and the legal system. I don't execute people. They do it within the framework of the legal system. I am not ok with the execution of an innocent person. But I still support the idea of Capital Punishment as a useful tool to punish those rightfully convicted.

Flint · 09-10-2009, 11:52 AM

If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent.

This is a dilemma which only you can decide for yourself: facing facts, weighing pros versus cons, and forming a position.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent.

That is not what I said. You said that.

There are numerous moral questions like this in life. This one is no different. It is not black and white it is gray.

I accept that it happens. I don't accept that it is ok.

Spexxvet · 09-11-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.
...

What if the executioner is on a treadmill?:p

piercehawkeye45 · 09-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

So the executed innocents...... are they not dying for a cause?

They are dying as a punishment for their convicted actions. I do not consider that a cause unless you consider "making an example out of someone" as a cause, which I don't.

Quote:

And did they not volunteer by living and voting/not voting in a state with CP?

So someone is just suppose to leave their entire life and move to a different state/country that does not have capital punishment just because of the extremely small possibility that they might go on death row? I do not call that rational. I call that paranoia.

Quote:

ANd even if they're anti CP and protest violently about it, what were they doing that made them a suspect?

You can be a suspect just from being in the wrong place at the wrong time or even by your skin color or dress. Is it likely? Hell no. Can it happen? Yes.

Quote:

isn't doing something dodgy in a state with the DP akin to volunteering?

Define dodgy. And no.

In reality, doing something out of the norm will make you a suspect and that must be recognized by everyone who wants to stay out of trouble. That is how the world works. Is that fair or just? No. But, I would prefer a justice system that is as just as realistically possible. So because of this, I strongly disagree that doing something dodgy in a state with the death penalty is akin to volunteering. Its just being stupid.

Flint · 09-10-2009, 11:59 AM

When you state two contradictory positions as if they can work together, this indicates that a problem exists in your logic.

2 + 2 = 4. If your position requires it to be 3 in one instance and 5 in another, the logical contradiction indicates a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not what I said. You said that.

That's right. My problem is the glaring disparity between the statements you are making and their logical consequences.

You support capital punishment + Capital punishment means an innocent could be executed = You are okay with that.

Quote:

I accept that it happens. I don't accept that it is ok.

Your support of capital punishment logically means that any possible death of an innocent that "happens" is "ok."

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

When you state two contradictory positions as if they can work together, this indicates that a problem exists in your logic.

2 + 2 = 4. If your position requires it to be 3 in one instance and 5 in another, the logical contradiction indicates a problem.

That's right. My problem is the glaring disparity between the statements you are making and their logical consequences.

You support capital punishment + Capital punishment means an innocent could be executed = You are okay with that.

Your support of capital punishment logically means that any possible death of an innocent that "happens" is "ok."

Do you support the killing of innocent people in Afganistan by US troops? Probably not. But I bet you would support the troops and understand that they have to do a job and sometimes innocent people get killed, as bad as it may be. It is not a black and white 2+2 situation. It is not a simple logic equation question.

Flint · 09-10-2009, 12:19 PM

When facing a decision you evaluate all possible aspects and weigh them against each other to form your postition. This can be a tough choice, but one of the things you cannot do, in reality, is simply ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable. If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position.

I have disowned nothing. I have not denied that it happens. I have accounted for my position completely.

09-09-2009, 10:33 PM	#2
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	Why? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-09-2009, 11:15 PM	#4
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	They are dying for a cause and they know what they are getting into. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

09-09-2009, 11:50 PM	#5
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	So the executed innocents...... are they not dying for a cause? And did they not volunteer by living and voting/not voting in a state with CP? ANd even if they're anti CP and protest violently about it, what were they doing that made them a suspect? isn't doing something dodgy in a state with the DP akin to volunteering? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-10-2009, 11:32 AM	#6
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again: If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic. As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person." If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-10-2009, 11:52 AM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent. This is a dilemma which only you can decide for yourself: facing facts, weighing pros versus cons, and forming a position. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-10-2009, 12:19 PM	#14
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	When facing a decision you evaluate all possible aspects and weigh them against each other to form your postition. This can be a tough choice, but one of the things you cannot do, in reality, is simply ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable. If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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