Terri Schiavo's Parents Seek Divorce on Her Behalf

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

However, not all religious people are extremists, as TW would imply. Not all MBAs are stupid, either.

While true, that isn't particularly relevant. The problems are being caused by the religious people who are extremists, and the MBAs who, while not necessarily stupid, are singleminded and shortsighted to the point of criminality. The existence of moderate religious people and thoughtful MBAs doesn't help anything unless they lend some support in reining in the others.

[vsp]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Who is the guy that said that? We need to shoot his ass before he can hurt people.

That would be Randall Terry, former head of Operation Rescue, currently <a href="http://www.earnedmedia.org/tf0214.htm">invited by the Schindler family</a> to <a href="http://www.earnedmedia.org/tf0318.htm">coordinate their efforts</a>. (Many better links to Terry's involvement than these two, they were just the first Google produced.)

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Yes, MBAs have issues. WE ALL KNOW THIS. Yes, there are kooks out there. WE ALL KNOW THIS. However, not all religious people are extremists, as TW would imply. Not all MBAs are stupid, either.

There are millions and millions and millions of religious people in this country who have no compelling interest in how others lead their lives, as long as they themselves have their rights to worship their god(s) in their private lives in the way that they choose to do so. THOSE are not religious extremists.

There are large numbers of religious people in this country who _do_ feel it is in their compelling interest to push for legislation based specifically on their religious and moral beliefs, to enforce those beliefs as the standard for behavior in our society, and to place their beliefs in a "preferred class" over those of "lesser" religions or belief systems.

THOSE are extremists. Tom "Clinton needed to be impeached because he didn't hold the right Biblical worldview" DeLay is one of them. The fact that people like DeLay are not only listened to but hold positions of high power in our government scares the bleeding ratshit out of me.

[OnyxCougar]

How do you know they aren't reigning in the others?

No one knows what is going on behind closed doors, as much as we'd all like to know. It just doesn't work that way. Never has, probably never will.

And I do have to admit that Tee isn't necessarily wrong in his views. I don't want the freedom of choice of ANY kind to be taken away from anyone. I don't think we should be a "Christian Nation", I think we should be a nation of people with compassion and spirituality, freedom, and morals. Whatever flavor that comes in.

There was a period recently, where it seemed every thread had religious stuff in it, and I think it's because this whole religious "thing" with the government is coming to a head. We need to make sure the people like the guy who said all that crazy shit don't do more damage than they have.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

How do you know they aren't reigning in the others?

I want to know that they ARE. I want the closed doors to be opened. I want prominent religous people to publically denounce attempts to shove religion into government. Instead, people like Randall Terry are supported by political and religious leaders because he has faith and therefore is a godly man.

Who are the moderate religious leaders who can oppose Falwell, Dobson, Terry, Robertson, etc?

[OnyxCougar]

http://www.societyfortruthandjustice.com/new_page_4.htm

I'd like Radar's opinion on this brief.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I want to know that they ARE. I want the closed doors to be opened. I want prominent religous people to publically denounce attempts to shove religion into government. Instead, people like Randall Terry are supported by political and religious leaders because he has faith and therefore is a godly man.

Who are the moderate religious leaders who can oppose Falwell, Dobson, Terry, Robertson, etc?

They would be people like TD Jakes, Joyce Meyer, Zachary Tims, etc. People who really are God-Fearing people, but don't get involved in politics.

I think it would be very difficult to be a Christian and be in politics. Firstly, you're not supposed to lie....

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I want to know that they ARE. I want the closed doors to be opened. I want prominent religous people to publically denounce attempts to shove religion into government. Instead, people like Randall Terry are supported by political and religious leaders because he has faith and therefore is a godly man.

Who are the moderate religious leaders who can oppose Falwell, Dobson, Terry, Robertson, etc?

This is the problem. If by "moderate religious leaders" you mean "people who have this nice little 'god' hobby, but keep it well under wraps where the rest of us never have to hear about its existence", they don't exist.

it's almost trite to say it now, but the separation of church and state is NOT about removing all vestiges of religion from anyone in public office. It's about preventing the state from telling people how to worship e.g., the Church of England. If someone in public office has moral and/or spiritual beliefs, they are an integral part of that person's decisions, their worldview, their interaction with the rest of humanity. They can't turn it off.

The political power of Falwell, Dobson, Terry, and Robertson combined amounts to zilch. I know fundamentalists, evangelical Christians, Baptists, and other boils on the ass of humanity, but none of us get our marching orders from any of those guys. Dobson has some good parenting tips occasionally, but no one listens to Falwell, I don't know who Terry is, and Pat Robertson is a 3 minute interview on Fox News. You are threatened by these people? Ever think that maybe we're voting our conscience as much as you are?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" and "[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" does NOT mean "there can be no affirmation of religion, mention of religion, or public practice of religion by anyone in any civil service role whatsoever, nor can religion enter the marketplace of ideas where politics or governance is concerned."

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

They would be people like TD Jakes, Joyce Meyer, Zachary Tims, etc. People who really are God-Fearing people, but don't get involved in politics.

I think it would be very difficult to be a Christian and be in politics. Firstly, you're not supposed to lie....

I don't doubt that there are plenty of religious people who don't support Dobson, Falwell et al. I want to know who will oppose them. If a nonreligious person, or even a person who doesn't mention their religion in public, opposes one of the religious demagogues, they get written off as an evil secularist who hates religion. We need a coalition of religious leaders willing to do the hard work of getting the attention of the fickle media, and explaining to everyone that religion and government poison each other. Right now, the demagogues are the public face of religion's role in government, and they have little opposition from other religious leaders.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

This is the problem. If by "moderate religious leaders" you mean "people who have this nice little 'god' hobby, but keep it well under wraps where the rest of us never have to hear about its existence", they don't exist.

Is that a sarcastic way of describing someone who doesn't think that the tenets of their religion should be codified into law? Because that's what I mean by "moderate religious leaders". And I do hold out hope that such people exist.

[OnyxCougar]

The tenets of Christianity/Judaism are already codified into law.

[Happy Monkey]

Only for Christians/Jews. Unless you think they invented the prohibitions on murder and theft.

[OnyxCougar]

And I want to mention here that the Schindlers are being hypocrits right in everyone's face but no one has mentioned this particular aspect:

They are seeking divorce on Terri's behalf while claiming she wouldn't go against the Pope's decree about withholding food and hydration.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Only for Christians/Jews. Unless you think they invented the prohibitions on murder and theft.

*insert speech about the 10 commandments being about 4000 years old, and therefore predating just about every civilization that we still have records for*

Jews were the first to have the codified Law prohibiting it. Christians obviously came later, but still follow those laws, if nothing else.

[mrnoodle]

The anti-christian zealots aren't worried about religious tenets being codified into US law. They throw a fit anytime God is mentioned, whether it be a schoolkid praying at lunch or a cross on a roadside memorial on a federal highway.

[Kitsune]

Jews were the first to have the codified Law prohibiting it.

I thought it was The Code of Hammurabi...? (just curious)

They throw a fit anytime God is mentioned, whether it be a schoolkid praying at lunch or a cross on a roadside memorial on a federal highway.

I've not seen anyone protest a child praying at lunch or a roadside cross. What I have seen, however, are people protesting prayers endorsed by public schools and crosses on erected using taxpayer money on government property. But, ah, if you prefer the twisted version of it that is heard on talk radio and Toby Keith songs, go right ahead...