Antisocial Personality Disorder - Page 11

Shawnee123 · 07-28-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Ritalin Cures Next Picasso

WORCESTER, MA—Area 7-year-old Douglas Castellano's unbridled energy and creativity are no longer a problem thanks to Ritalin, doctors for the child announced Monday. "After years of failed attempts to stop Douglas' uncontrollable bouts of self-expression, we have finally found success with Ritalin," Dr. Irwin Schraeger said. "For the first time in his life, Douglas can actually sit down and not think about lots of things at once." Castellano's parents reported that the cured child no longer tries to draw on everything in sight, calming down enough to show an interest in television.

© Copyright 2006, Onion, Inc.

That almost made me sad...then I saw it was from the Onion!

Happy Monkey · 07-28-2006, 02:33 PM

Unfortunately, it's one of those Onion articles that tells a real story in a sarcastic way. Stuff like that happens all the time.

Pangloss62 · 07-31-2006, 02:55 PM

When I read the below this past Sunday, I couldn't help thinking about this string. I think there are some serious flaws in its reasoning, but I'm curious what you guys think. They acutally invoke the "automaton" notion that got so many people stirred up here in the cellar. Have at it:

The Insanity Defense Goes Back on Trial

By MORRIS B. HOFFMAN and STEPHEN J. MORSE
Published: July 30, 2006

IN June, the Supreme Court upheld a narrow Arizona test for legal insanity, which asked simply whether mental disorder prevented the defendant from knowing right from wrong. Last week, a Texas jury used a similarly narrow test to decide that Andrea Yates was legally insane when she drowned her five children in a bathtub, allegedly to save them from being tormented forever in hell.

Many scientists and legal scholars have complained that tests like these, used by the law to determine criminal responsibility, are unscientific. Given recent advances in our understanding of human behavior and of the brain, these critics argue, the legal test for insanity is a quaint relic of a bygone era.

These criticisms misunderstand the nature of criminal responsibility, which is moral, not scientific. On the other hand, legislation that has eliminated or unduly constrained the insanity defense, often in response to unpopular verdicts of not guilty by reason of insanity, is likewise off the mark. Between these two attacks, the concept of the morally responsible individual seems to be disappearing.

For centuries we have had a rough idea of the categories of people whom we should not hold criminally responsible. Early cases labeled them “the juvenile, possessed or insane.” The idea was that only people capable of understanding and abiding by the rules of the social contract may justly be declared criminally responsible for their breaches. Someone who genuinely believes he has heard God’s voice command him to kill another does not deserve blame and punishment, because he lacks the ability to reason about the moral quality of his action.

In an effort to hold most people accountable, and recognizing both the difficulty of establishing what was in the defendant’s mind at the time of the crime and the defendant’s incentive to lie about it, the law sought to establish strict standards for responsibility. As a result, legal insanity tests were drawn quite narrowly. They did not excuse most defendants whose intentional conduct broke the law, even if they might have suffered from mental disorders or other problems at the time of the crime.

The rise of various materialistic and deterministic explanations of human behavior, including psychiatry, psychology, sociology and, more recently, neuroscience, has posed a particular challenge to the criminal law’s relatively simple central assumption that with few exceptions we act intentionally and can be held responsible. These schools of thought attribute people’s actions not to their own intentions, but rather to powerful and predictable forces over which they have no control. People aren’t responsible for their crimes: it’s their poverty, their addictions or, ultimately, their neurons.

Lawyers and policymakers brought these academic explanations into the courts and legislatures, many of which responded to the pressure by expanding the doctrines of mitigation and excuse. Predictably, however, the public tired of many of the broader uses of the defense, especially after John Hinckley Jr. was found not guilty for reason of insanity for the attempted murder of President Ronald Reagan and others. Congress responded by adopting a narrow insanity defense, and many states followed suit. Four states have abolished the insanity defense entirely.

Once we agree that there may be some small percentage of people whose moral cognition is seriously disordered, how can the law identify those people in a way that will not allow the materialism of science to expand the definitions of excusing conditions to include all criminals? That is, if paranoid schizophrenia can provide part of the basis to excuse some criminal acts, why not bipolar disorder, or being angry, or having a bad day, or just being a jerk? After all, a large number of factors over which we have no rational control cause each of us to be the way we are.

The short answer is that we should recognize that the criteria for responsibility — intentionality and moral capacity — are social and legal concepts, not scientific, medical or psychiatric ones. Neither behavioral science nor neuroscience has demonstrated that we are automatons who lack the capacity for rational moral evaluation, even though we sometimes don’t use it. Some people suffer from mental disorder and some do not; some people form intentions and some do not. Most people are responsible, but some are not.

Punishing the deserving wrongdoers among us — those who intentionally violate the criminal law and are cognitively unimpaired — takes people seriously as moral agents and lies at the heart of what being civilized is all about. But being civilized also means not punishing those whom we deem morally impaired by mental disorder. Convicting and punishing a defendant who genuinely believed that God commanded him to kill is not unscientific, it is immoral and unjust.

We should be skeptical about claims of non-responsibility. But, if insanity-defense tests are interpreted sensibly to excuse people who genuinely lacked the ability to reason morally at the time of the crime, and expert testimony is treated with appropriate caution, the criminal justice system can reasonably decide whom to blame and punish.

Wrong insanity verdicts are possible, of course, but wrong verdicts are always possible. We should not respond by abandoning a defense that justice requires. A sensible test for legal insanity, fairly applied, can help prevent the concept of the responsible person from disappearing, either because the law naïvely accepts a cacophony of untestable excuses, or because cynical legislators overreact by permitting the conviction and punishment of blameless defendants.

Morris B. Hoffman is a state trial judge in Denver and a fellow at the Gruter Institute for Law and Behavioral Research. Stephen J. Morse is a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania.

wolf · 07-31-2006, 06:20 PM

The M'Naughten Rule, or whether the individual suffers from such a defect of reason that they are unable to tell the difference between right and wrong is not the legal standard for insanity in all jurisdictions.

Insanity defenses are actually quite rare. Off the top of my head, it's used in less than 3% of cases, and is not usually successful.

Pangloss62 · 08-01-2006, 07:49 AM

Much of the discourse about this issue presupposes all people agree as to what is "right" and what is "wrong." Even the most cursory overview of world culture will show that right and wrong are subjective. For some, let's say tradional Ethiopians, FGM is the correct and proper thing to practice. For some Afghanistanies, it is wholly correct for a 13-year-old girl to be the second bride of a 53-year-old man. Look at our own debates about mercy killing (murder?).

I'm not saying we should abandon the prosecution of "justice" because morality is subjective, but we should at least admit that is the case and come up with some universal criteria based upon the nature of the illegal act and its effect on the victim; yes, a more rational approach. Keep morals out of it.

08-01-2006, 08:08 AM

Did they try to hide what they did? If so, they knew it was wrong.

BigV · 08-01-2006, 11:11 AM

I "try to hide", as in keep out of public view and discourse, many of my activities. There's door with a lock on my bathroom, my bedroom and I keep my financial documents under lock and key. Are you implying my activities in those areas are wrong or illegal? Or could they be simply private. What would Occam say?

Trilby · 08-01-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Insanity defenses are actually quite rare. Off the top of my head, it's used in less than 3% of cases, and is not usually successful.

Ya know what's eff'ed up? In my piddly Dayton, Oh, State Hosp. I had two NGRI on my ward and we had three wards. NGRI is not so uncommon. What is common is public disinterest in the case. I had a woman who set fires in local McDonalds and then, when rescue personnel would arrive, would demand a "get-a-way car" and "a pair of black hose!"...McDonalds was NOT eager for the publicity a trial would engender and the woman was quietly committed. Plus, she was nuts.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-09-2006, 03:46 AM

It took me a moment's Google-age to determine that NGRI did not stand for National Geophysical Research Institute, of Hyderabad, India.

9th Engineer · 08-09-2006, 11:38 AM

Wouldn't measuring right and wrong based on harm to one of the parties involved be another moral system? Morals can be based on rational thought you know.

wolf · 08-09-2006, 11:48 AM

There is a local NGRI defense that succeeded. Robert the Crazy Guy who Sleeps on the Porch Sometimes was talking to me about him last night. He was his roommate for a while.

He has pretty much the run of the grounds, and works in the Cafeteria. They have been letting him off grounds to attend church, which was a big amendment in his detention order. He has gotten married while hospitalized, twice. Wife #3 is someone that Richard met online. Wife #2 was a nurse at the State Hospital. She committed suicide about a year after they married. He killed Wife #1 (who was pregnant).

The photograph of him coming out of the house after killing his wife won a Pulitzer Prize.

Quote:

08/03/2006
Greist has to stay put
R. JONATHAN TULEYA , Staff Writer

WEST CHESTER -- A Chester County judge denied Richard Greist’s latest attempt to be released from Norristown State Hospital, calling the institutionalized killer unmotivated to address his mental illness and too focused on getting released from Norristown State Hospital.
"Mr. Greist’s only concern is with his own release from custody and to this end he manipulates (hospital) staff and dictates his own treatment," Common Pleas Court Judge Edward Griffith wrote in a order released Tuesday. "Mr. Greist has no interest in addressing the concerns of the this court, such as his lack of empathy, his manipulative behavior, his impulsivity and triggers of stress and frustration."

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On May 10, 1978, Greist, now 54, killed his pregnant wife and their unborn son and viciously attacked his daughters, ages 5 and 6 at the time, and the girls’ grandmother.

He has been a patient at Norristown State Hospital since Common Pleas Court Judge Thomas A. Pitt Jr. ruled that Greist was not guilty by reason of insanity in December 1980.

On Thursday, Griffith listened as Greist and his attorney, Marita M. Hutchinson, argued for the killer to be moved to a less-structured, residential facility. Two of Greist’s psychiatrists -- Dr. Robert D. Polishook, his supervising psychiatrist at Norristown, and Dr. Robert F. Limoges, a therapist who sees him weekly -- testified in support of the move.

Dr. Barbara E. Ziv, a psychiatrist called to testify by the district attorney’s office, told the judge she had not seen any improvement in Greist’s mental condition, and she warned no one could predict how the stress of life outside the hospital would affect him.

In his decision, Griffith ordered Greist to stop seeing Limoges for therapy. Limoges had testified last week that he did not believe Greist currently suffered from any mental illness.

Griffin also instructed Norristown State to continue Greist’s psychiatric treatment with emphasizing "insight-oriented therapy," as had been originally called for 2003.

"Another year has passed and again (the hospital) has been non-compliant with the directive that Mr. Greist receive intensive, insight-oriented therapy," Griffith wrote. "As we have held in the past, we find such treatment is not only necessary but also critical to Mr. Greist’s recovery."

The judge’s order left a number of the conditions of Greist’s institutionalization in place.

Greist will continue to be allowed to travel off the Norristown State Hospital property to attend therapy sessions and to go to religious services at the West Norristown Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

He also will continue to be granted one 12-hour, unsupervised leave from the hospital every three months, according to Griffith’s order.

As a condition of these trips from the hospitals, the hospital must notify local law enforcement and the Chester County District Attorney’s Office.

To contact staff writer R. Jonathan Tuleya, send an e-mail to jtuleya@dailylocal.com.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-14-2006, 03:42 AM

Morals must be based on rational thought; otherwise they are not morals, but superstitions. Moral behavior is survival behavior, for both the individual and the society.

Wolf, off the top of my head, was this the case of the guy who cut the eyes out of both his daughters with a knife "because he saw the devil there" before surrendering? The older daughter said, "Please don't hurt my daddy," as she groped her way out of the house he was barricaded in.

08-14-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

I "try to hide", as in keep out of public view and discourse, many of my activities. There's door with a lock on my bathroom, my bedroom and I keep my financial documents under lock and key. Are you implying my activities in those areas are wrong or illegal? Or could they be simply private. What would Occam say?

That is not hiding, that is privacy... if asked what you were doing in the bathroom by the authorities you would not lie... that is the difference.
If they lie about what they did, they know it was wrong, they are not insane. That is what Occam says.

07-28-2006, 02:33 PM	#152
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Unfortunately, it's one of those Onion articles that tells a real story in a sarcastic way. Stuff like that happens all the time. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-31-2006, 02:55 PM	#153
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Stop The Insanity When I read the below this past Sunday, I couldn't help thinking about this string. I think there are some serious flaws in its reasoning, but I'm curious what you guys think. They acutally invoke the "automaton" notion that got so many people stirred up here in the cellar. Have at it: The Insanity Defense Goes Back on Trial By MORRIS B. HOFFMAN and STEPHEN J. MORSE Published: July 30, 2006 IN June, the Supreme Court upheld a narrow Arizona test for legal insanity, which asked simply whether mental disorder prevented the defendant from knowing right from wrong. Last week, a Texas jury used a similarly narrow test to decide that Andrea Yates was legally insane when she drowned her five children in a bathtub, allegedly to save them from being tormented forever in hell. Many scientists and legal scholars have complained that tests like these, used by the law to determine criminal responsibility, are unscientific. Given recent advances in our understanding of human behavior and of the brain, these critics argue, the legal test for insanity is a quaint relic of a bygone era. These criticisms misunderstand the nature of criminal responsibility, which is moral, not scientific. On the other hand, legislation that has eliminated or unduly constrained the insanity defense, often in response to unpopular verdicts of not guilty by reason of insanity, is likewise off the mark. Between these two attacks, the concept of the morally responsible individual seems to be disappearing. For centuries we have had a rough idea of the categories of people whom we should not hold criminally responsible. Early cases labeled them “the juvenile, possessed or insane.” The idea was that only people capable of understanding and abiding by the rules of the social contract may justly be declared criminally responsible for their breaches. Someone who genuinely believes he has heard God’s voice command him to kill another does not deserve blame and punishment, because he lacks the ability to reason about the moral quality of his action. In an effort to hold most people accountable, and recognizing both the difficulty of establishing what was in the defendant’s mind at the time of the crime and the defendant’s incentive to lie about it, the law sought to establish strict standards for responsibility. As a result, legal insanity tests were drawn quite narrowly. They did not excuse most defendants whose intentional conduct broke the law, even if they might have suffered from mental disorders or other problems at the time of the crime. The rise of various materialistic and deterministic explanations of human behavior, including psychiatry, psychology, sociology and, more recently, neuroscience, has posed a particular challenge to the criminal law’s relatively simple central assumption that with few exceptions we act intentionally and can be held responsible. These schools of thought attribute people’s actions not to their own intentions, but rather to powerful and predictable forces over which they have no control. People aren’t responsible for their crimes: it’s their poverty, their addictions or, ultimately, their neurons. Lawyers and policymakers brought these academic explanations into the courts and legislatures, many of which responded to the pressure by expanding the doctrines of mitigation and excuse. Predictably, however, the public tired of many of the broader uses of the defense, especially after John Hinckley Jr. was found not guilty for reason of insanity for the attempted murder of President Ronald Reagan and others. Congress responded by adopting a narrow insanity defense, and many states followed suit. Four states have abolished the insanity defense entirely. Once we agree that there may be some small percentage of people whose moral cognition is seriously disordered, how can the law identify those people in a way that will not allow the materialism of science to expand the definitions of excusing conditions to include all criminals? That is, if paranoid schizophrenia can provide part of the basis to excuse some criminal acts, why not bipolar disorder, or being angry, or having a bad day, or just being a jerk? After all, a large number of factors over which we have no rational control cause each of us to be the way we are. The short answer is that we should recognize that the criteria for responsibility — intentionality and moral capacity — are social and legal concepts, not scientific, medical or psychiatric ones. Neither behavioral science nor neuroscience has demonstrated that we are automatons who lack the capacity for rational moral evaluation, even though we sometimes don’t use it. Some people suffer from mental disorder and some do not; some people form intentions and some do not. Most people are responsible, but some are not. Punishing the deserving wrongdoers among us — those who intentionally violate the criminal law and are cognitively unimpaired — takes people seriously as moral agents and lies at the heart of what being civilized is all about. But being civilized also means not punishing those whom we deem morally impaired by mental disorder. Convicting and punishing a defendant who genuinely believed that God commanded him to kill is not unscientific, it is immoral and unjust. We should be skeptical about claims of non-responsibility. But, if insanity-defense tests are interpreted sensibly to excuse people who genuinely lacked the ability to reason morally at the time of the crime, and expert testimony is treated with appropriate caution, the criminal justice system can reasonably decide whom to blame and punish. Wrong insanity verdicts are possible, of course, but wrong verdicts are always possible. We should not respond by abandoning a defense that justice requires. A sensible test for legal insanity, fairly applied, can help prevent the concept of the responsible person from disappearing, either because the law naïvely accepts a cacophony of untestable excuses, or because cynical legislators overreact by permitting the conviction and punishment of blameless defendants. Morris B. Hoffman is a state trial judge in Denver and a fellow at the Gruter Institute for Law and Behavioral Research. Stephen J. Morse is a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania. __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

07-31-2006, 06:20 PM	#154
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	The M'Naughten Rule, or whether the individual suffers from such a defect of reason that they are unable to tell the difference between right and wrong is not the legal standard for insanity in all jurisdictions. Insanity defenses are actually quite rare. Off the top of my head, it's used in less than 3% of cases, and is not usually successful. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

08-01-2006, 07:49 AM	#155
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Right or Wrong Much of the discourse about this issue presupposes all people agree as to what is "right" and what is "wrong." Even the most cursory overview of world culture will show that right and wrong are subjective. For some, let's say tradional Ethiopians, FGM is the correct and proper thing to practice. For some Afghanistanies, it is wholly correct for a 13-year-old girl to be the second bride of a 53-year-old man. Look at our own debates about mercy killing (murder?). I'm not saying we should abandon the prosecution of "justice" because morality is subjective, but we should at least admit that is the case and come up with some universal criteria based upon the nature of the illegal act and its effect on the victim; yes, a more rational approach. Keep morals out of it. __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

08-01-2006, 11:11 AM	#157
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	I "try to hide", as in keep out of public view and discourse, many of my activities. There's door with a lock on my bathroom, my bedroom and I keep my financial documents under lock and key. Are you implying my activities in those areas are wrong or illegal? Or could they be simply private. What would Occam say? __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

08-01-2006, 08:08 AM	#156
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Did they try to hide what they did? If so, they knew it was wrong.

08-09-2006, 03:46 AM	#159
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	It took me a moment's Google-age to determine that NGRI did not stand for National Geophysical Research Institute, of Hyderabad, India. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

08-09-2006, 11:38 AM	#160
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Wouldn't measuring right and wrong based on harm to one of the parties involved be another moral system? Morals can be based on rational thought you know. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

08-14-2006, 03:42 AM	#162
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Morals must be based on rational thought; otherwise they are not morals, but superstitions. Moral behavior is survival behavior, for both the individual and the society. Wolf, off the top of my head, was this the case of the guy who cut the eyes out of both his daughters with a knife "because he saw the devil there" before surrendering? The older daughter said, "Please don't hurt my daddy," as she groped her way out of the house he was barricaded in. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

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