Dutch Ban Burkas - Page 11

Aliantha · 11-21-2006, 08:26 PM

Generally for good students it's beneficial to be known by your lecturer.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-21-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

But, my primary experience of moslem women/girls, is of strong minded and highly political, well educated people who take an active role in their towns and cities. My university is full of them; Bradford university even more so.

Doesn't that in itself make them different from the majority of Muslim women, especially in the middle east and southeast Asia? Maybe even in Australia, Britain and the US?

WabUfvot5 · 11-21-2006, 10:34 PM

Test driving a burka.

Aliantha · 11-21-2006, 10:43 PM

Many many of hubby's Muslim students come from the middle east, as did a lot of the students I studied with when I was at uni.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-22-2006, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Many many of hubby's Muslim students come from the middle east, as did a lot of the students I studied with when I was at uni.

How many million female Muslims are in the middle east? What percentage of them aren't allowed to go to school at all?
But isn't the fact they traveled abroad, as well as went to the university, make them different from most of their peers?

DanaC · 11-22-2006, 05:14 AM

I suspect that the state of education for girls (and even for boys) varies drastically between rural and urban settings. It is also likely to vary drastically according to class, sect and ethnicity. The same could be said of Hindu communities and African communities. This is not peculiar to Islam.

Hippikos · 11-22-2006, 05:56 AM

Quote:

What percentage of them aren't allowed to go to school at all?

You'd be amazed. In one of the Axis of Evil members, Iran, 45% of the students are female.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-22-2006, 04:50 PM

Yes, urban vs rural would probably show a big difference. Does anyone know, in the urban setting are they schools separate sexes, and do they get the same subjects of instruction?

Aliantha · 11-22-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

How many million female Muslims are in the middle east? What percentage of them aren't allowed to go to school at all?
But isn't the fact they traveled abroad, as well as went to the university, make them different from most of their peers?

In most countries people who attend university over seas are different. I can't say what makes them different other than their nationality.

orthodoc · 11-22-2006, 07:33 PM

My chief contact with Muslim women has come through my practice. In Canada (we lived there for two years) there was a number of Muslim families in my practice. The married women were always accompanied by their husbands, who spoke for them! It was bizarre to ask a woman a question and have her remain mute, while her husband answered for her. If I said, "Where does your leg hurt?" she would say nothing, just look at her husband, and he would gesture vaguely toward her lower leg and say, "It hurts there." Not a recipe for quality medical care.

Usually they would have a child or two along with them, and the father would be the only one to speak to the children - until they were out in the waiting room again, when the woman would speak English to the kids. This was not a language barrier in the usual sense.

The Muslim women who came in on their own had husbands who were 'away' for a prolonged period of time, in another country

; and these women, every one, were depressed, super-anxious, and on the verge, or over the edge, of nervous breakdowns. There were very few ways to help them, because they were dropped off and picked up by male family members, and they were not permitted to go to counseling of any kind. It was the most upsetting thing in my practice.

I realize that not every Muslim woman in the world (or at least, in the West) is having a nervous breakdown or not permitted to speak by her husband. But the number who were either severely anxious, or not permitted to speak to a female doctor, in one limited population sample, was astonishing. I didn't have any Muslim families with a basically healthy wife who was allowed to speak for herself.

After that experience, I have a dim view of the claims that veiled Muslim women are 'liberated'. That term didn't exist for the women I saw.

Guyute · 11-22-2006, 09:40 PM

I think Holland is trying to establish a quid pro quo. If they want to move to another country from these Arab "homelands", their must be a reason. Thus, there should be an inherent sense of give and take. Historically, other cultures moving into Western Europe and North America have inreasingly faced govenments trying to accommodate them, with the hopes that they will inegrate into their communities and interact. The problem is that recently, these populations immigrating seem to be more take than give.In my hometown there was only one female Muslim MD, and her practice was overrun by Muslim women patients, because they were not allowed to be touched or examined by a male. Yeah, that's real enlightened.

I, for one, feel that there is a tendency for "Western" democracies to allow individuals to immigrate, and join the melting pot. Then all of the sudden we discover that these groups, by and large, stick together and hence areas like Little Italy or Chinatown flourish. No surprise, but these communities and cultures co-existed and combined to form present-day Western democracies, while still retaining some of their original integrity.

The trouble is that in the last few years, say 25 or so at a guess, these countries have allowed in vast numbers of immigrants who wish to continue the attitudes and actions of their homeland, just as they have since WW II, at least, but in a much more intolerant manner. The liberal governments have then bent over backwards to allow any group to dictate to them by evoking the principles of freedom of speech and religion, and consequently have eroded any backbone that may have been politically present. The fact that these governments were predominantly white WASP-descended engendered a sense of "let them be, we are trying to show how tolerant we can be".

The problem is that most of these groups tend to exhibit too much take, as I said before. A muslim group in Ontario wanted to forego Canadian laws and impose Sharia law on their community. Someone or some people in Ontario finally had enough backbone to say "sorry, this is Canada and we do not allow religious law; we ALL abide by the same set of rules." Unfortunately, many Muslims have shown a considerable reluctance to abide by this principle. They obviously feel that they are emigrating to another country with the aim of continuing their lifestyle as it was in their homeland. How "Animal Farm"!!

What will happen is that eventually these fringe societies will eventually take on political force, and suddenly we will wake up too late to the fact that extremism has a political foothold. This movement needs to be checked, and I think THAT is probably the message the Dutch government is sending. Democracy is founded on the greater good, and strict followers of Islam seem to be missing this.

CaliforniaMama · 11-23-2006, 02:34 AM

Quote:

What will happen is that eventually these fringe societies will eventually take on political force, and suddenly we will wake up too late to the fact that extremism has a political foothold. This movement needs to be checked, and I think THAT is probably the message the Dutch government is sending. Democracy is founded on the greater good, and strict followers of Islam seem to be missing this.

Good point.

And after finally seeing Syriana tonight, I agree even more than I did before, that Muslims are not seeing the concepts of freedom and civil rights with the same eyes we use.

It is hard for us to accept that they are not interested in freedom the same way we are, therefore, it is hard for us to understand that they may be fighting the good fight for political reasons that have nothing to do with civil rights.

DanaC · 11-23-2006, 02:51 AM

The picture of moslem women unable to speak for themselves is a genuine one. The picture of moslem immigrants unwilling to adapt or intergrate, is a genuine one.....but the picture of western born moslem women who are strong minded individuals is also a genuine one, as is the picture of moslems who love their adopted country.

The reality is that the moslem diaspora is very very large. One simply cannot generalise across the entire diaspora through a single view of moslem behaviour. There is as much variance within the moslem population as there is amongst the Christian population.

CaliforniaMama · 11-23-2006, 05:51 PM

Very true.

Which is why making laws is a tricky business. We must keep the general populace safe, even if it means infringing on the rights of a few. The potential downside of incorporating the rights of the few is too huge in this case.

Hippikos · 11-24-2006, 09:18 AM

There certainly are Muslim families in Holland like Orthodoc describes, but in my experience they are in the minority.

What I do see here are many self-assured young muslimas, many of them wearing headscarves out of own free will, very well being able to speak for themselves.

Having said that, I realise there's quite a way to go for the muslim male population.

11-21-2006, 08:26 PM	#151
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Generally for good students it's beneficial to be known by your lecturer. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-21-2006, 10:43 PM	#154
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Many many of hubby's Muslim students come from the middle east, as did a lot of the students I studied with when I was at uni. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-22-2006, 04:50 PM	#158
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Yes, urban vs rural would probably show a big difference. Does anyone know, in the urban setting are they schools separate sexes, and do they get the same subjects of instruction? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

11-22-2006, 07:33 PM	#160
orthodoc Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,774	My chief contact with Muslim women has come through my practice. In Canada (we lived there for two years) there was a number of Muslim families in my practice. The married women were always accompanied by their husbands, who spoke for them! It was bizarre to ask a woman a question and have her remain mute, while her husband answered for her. If I said, "Where does your leg hurt?" she would say nothing, just look at her husband, and he would gesture vaguely toward her lower leg and say, "It hurts there." Not a recipe for quality medical care. Usually they would have a child or two along with them, and the father would be the only one to speak to the children - until they were out in the waiting room again, when the woman would speak English to the kids. This was not a language barrier in the usual sense. The Muslim women who came in on their own had husbands who were 'away' for a prolonged period of time, in another country ; and these women, every one, were depressed, super-anxious, and on the verge, or over the edge, of nervous breakdowns. There were very few ways to help them, because they were dropped off and picked up by male family members, and they were not permitted to go to counseling of any kind. It was the most upsetting thing in my practice. I realize that not every Muslim woman in the world (or at least, in the West) is having a nervous breakdown or not permitted to speak by her husband. But the number who were either severely anxious, or not permitted to speak to a female doctor, in one limited population sample, was astonishing. I didn't have any Muslim families with a basically healthy wife who was allowed to speak for herself. After that experience, I have a dim view of the claims that veiled Muslim women are 'liberated'. That term didn't exist for the women I saw. __________________ The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi

11-22-2006, 09:40 PM	#161
Guyute Gamehenge Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Halifax, NS Posts: 168	I think Holland is trying to establish a quid pro quo. If they want to move to another country from these Arab "homelands", their must be a reason. Thus, there should be an inherent sense of give and take. Historically, other cultures moving into Western Europe and North America have inreasingly faced govenments trying to accommodate them, with the hopes that they will inegrate into their communities and interact. The problem is that recently, these populations immigrating seem to be more take than give.In my hometown there was only one female Muslim MD, and her practice was overrun by Muslim women patients, because they were not allowed to be touched or examined by a male. Yeah, that's real enlightened. I, for one, feel that there is a tendency for "Western" democracies to allow individuals to immigrate, and join the melting pot. Then all of the sudden we discover that these groups, by and large, stick together and hence areas like Little Italy or Chinatown flourish. No surprise, but these communities and cultures co-existed and combined to form present-day Western democracies, while still retaining some of their original integrity. The trouble is that in the last few years, say 25 or so at a guess, these countries have allowed in vast numbers of immigrants who wish to continue the attitudes and actions of their homeland, just as they have since WW II, at least, but in a much more intolerant manner. The liberal governments have then bent over backwards to allow any group to dictate to them by evoking the principles of freedom of speech and religion, and consequently have eroded any backbone that may have been politically present. The fact that these governments were predominantly white WASP-descended engendered a sense of "let them be, we are trying to show how tolerant we can be". The problem is that most of these groups tend to exhibit too much take, as I said before. A muslim group in Ontario wanted to forego Canadian laws and impose Sharia law on their community. Someone or some people in Ontario finally had enough backbone to say "sorry, this is Canada and we do not allow religious law; we ALL abide by the same set of rules." Unfortunately, many Muslims have shown a considerable reluctance to abide by this principle. They obviously feel that they are emigrating to another country with the aim of continuing their lifestyle as it was in their homeland. How "Animal Farm"!! What will happen is that eventually these fringe societies will eventually take on political force, and suddenly we will wake up too late to the fact that extremism has a political foothold. This movement needs to be checked, and I think THAT is probably the message the Dutch government is sending. Democracy is founded on the greater good, and strict followers of Islam seem to be missing this. __________________ It's Really Plain and Easy To See, The Family grows like fungus on a tree.

11-21-2006, 10:34 PM	#153
WabUfvot5 Operations Operative Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 634	Test driving a burka.

11-22-2006, 05:14 AM	#156
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	I suspect that the state of education for girls (and even for boys) varies drastically between rural and urban settings. It is also likely to vary drastically according to class, sect and ethnicity. The same could be said of Hindu communities and African communities. This is not peculiar to Islam.

11-23-2006, 02:51 AM	#163
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	The picture of moslem women unable to speak for themselves is a genuine one. The picture of moslem immigrants unwilling to adapt or intergrate, is a genuine one.....but the picture of western born moslem women who are strong minded individuals is also a genuine one, as is the picture of moslems who love their adopted country. The reality is that the moslem diaspora is very very large. One simply cannot generalise across the entire diaspora through a single view of moslem behaviour. There is as much variance within the moslem population as there is amongst the Christian population.

11-23-2006, 05:51 PM	#164
CaliforniaMama I wonder . . . Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: The Left Coast, a pretty good place to be. Posts: 1,278	Very true. Which is why making laws is a tricky business. We must keep the general populace safe, even if it means infringing on the rights of a few. The potential downside of incorporating the rights of the few is too huge in this case. __________________ Take time for silence. You never know what you might hear.

11-24-2006, 09:18 AM	#165
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	There certainly are Muslim families in Holland like Orthodoc describes, but in my experience they are in the minority. What I do see here are many self-assured young muslimas, many of them wearing headscarves out of own free will, very well being able to speak for themselves. Having said that, I realise there's quite a way to go for the muslim male population. __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)