Divorce

[DanaC]

She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.

People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.

Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.

I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner.

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

Not you saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.

You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other.

While I do think that it is bad for one parent to be mean to the other, you really missed what I said.

Originally Posted by Deuce

But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.

It is the welfare of our son that I am most concerned about. These two are so closely linked that they're difficult to separate. But it is a greater tragedy that our son suffers because we're unable to get along, or because we're unable to manage our conflict in a constructive manner.

Originally Posted by kgg

I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean.

No, I have said that there's hurt on both sides. There's so much hurt that we can't see our way back to each other, back to the love and family that we share. rkzenrage has already given up on me. My wife has given up on me. I haven't given up. I'm working through the pain to reach her. Through *my* pain. Trying not to increase *her* pain. I have never said that she's the only one being mean... I hurt and she hurts.

Originally Posted by kgg

Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited.

Ok, I guess I misunderstood you about the "no contact" thing in the other quote. But I have to ask you again, which of my posts "seem pretty mean spirited"? For sure, I was writing at times when I was crushed with pain, drowned with fear. But I went back and re-read them, and I don't see the meanness you're talking about.

I'm asking because I've heard this before. "That hurt, that was mean." I must have some blind spot here, and dammit, it's a problem for me. I have never posted anything with that intention. What did I post that was mean? Can you explain that to me, please?

Originally Posted by kgg

It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally.

Nor can I imagine it, not even unintentionally. She is a very strong person, and fiercely protective of our children. I admire that. And there is no limit to the love I have for our children. Right now, the hurt our youngest son is suffering, and believe me, he is suffering, is from our inability to manage our conflict constructively. In fact, it's so bad that our fighting hurts him, and the fighting that's leading to divorce hurts him. And this is likely just the opening act. Actually living apart will be awful, expensive, and destructive. It will be like dying. There will be a death of the family our son has known all his life, the only family structure he knows. If that pain is avoidable, and I am convinced that it is possible to avoid it, that I should withhold nothing in my efforts to do so.

Originally Posted by kgg

She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.

being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away.

Yes, sadly, you're right. I regret that I agree with you, she is hurting. And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.

And, yes, I am hurting too.

I want to give her every consideration, I want compassion and forgiveness and love to flow again. It is there. But I don't know how to get to it.

Originally Posted by kgg

16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it.

I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.

I am filled with compassion for her, and I think there is some compassion in her for me, but that it is hidden behind a protective wall, made of bricks of anger mortared together by pain. Anger and pain topped by fear makes a redoubtable defense. I love her, and I weep for her pain and fear. But I don't know how to salve it.

They say that you learn from your mistakes, but there are so many mistakes to be made, that I don't think I could fit them all into my one lifetime. Better I should learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. You paint a sympathetic picture, and your last remark intrigues me. If you are willing, I would like to hear about your experience. Perhaps I could avoid the mistakes you lived through. I could sure use the help. I would like to benefit from your increased wisdom.

[DanaC]

Deuce, you haven't sounded at all mean spirited to me in your posts. You just sound like someone who is hurting.

And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.

Sometimes it isn't about changing, isn't about hardwork. Sometimes it is simply that two people are no longer compatible, are no longer good for each other. It's entirely possible that the things your wife says she can't deal with (like you being hurtful, or not being emotionally honest) are merely manifestations of that lack of compatibility. It's equally possible (indeed probable) that the same things that drew her to you now drive her from you. What may have seemed like strength and self sufficiency when she was in love, may seem like a lack of openness now. What may have seemed like passion and fire, may now seem like frightening anger.

The things that first attract us are often the things that later repel us.

You seem to believe this is your fault Deuce. You seem to have taken on all the responsibility for making this situation: like it's all because you can't express yourself or let her in, or are too angry and explosive. More likely, but more painful as it's fundamentally unfixable, is that the person she is now is not in love with the person you are now. That doesn't mean the peson you are is wrong.

[Stormieweather]

You say you love your wife, but do you respect her? She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?

She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.

Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).

If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.

If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?

"Approximately sixty-nine percent of all relationship conflicts never will be resolved. It is more important not to hurt the other person instead of finding out who is right or wrong."

Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?

I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.

Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.

Time and space will usually bring clarity.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

kgg this isn't about condemning her. This is about ensuring that if what she is doing is being done as part of the 'divorce game' then deuce protects himself.

I couldn't give a shit abotu her, because I don't know her and she's never posted here. Doesn't mean I think she's in the wrong, she might be in the right. Not the point: Deuce is here, he's a dwellar, we want him to be okay. The advice here in this thread is offered in that spirit.

Also...the woman has taken out court orders against him. She has prevented him from seeing his children. It does not really matter whether her reasons were valid/understandable to us or not. Right now, anger is deuce's friend. She is not.

Smurf, I see your point, and indeed I have asked the same question. Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Deuce and his (ex) wife get to the end of this process with as little trauma as possible. What matters is that at the end of this process there will be a degree of peace and stability in which to reflect on it.

I thank you for your concern for me, truly I do. I would hope that you care for the things I care about too, which means a certain amount of compassion and respect for my wife. **I** give a shit about her.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Who said anything about a son not having a father? In fact I was the one trying to tell you how to make sure you don't slip-up in that area.
Be paranoid about everything else but the person who is trying to actually do what you are worried about... don't listen to me at all, this will be my last post.
I have been around this kind of stuff my whole life and know how these restraining orders work and know that people will create openings for others to walk through them on their own so they will have that on their side in court or deliberations later.
If she is playing this to win and you are just trying to get to talk to her and spend every second with your son every day that you can and she knows this, you are fucked. Have fun, because you are not in this for the long haul.
A divorce is not about feelings it is about assets and privileges and who "deserves" them and there are no rules as to how the perception of that is obtained and it seems to me that you are completely unaware as to what is happening here.
I gave you advice based on experience, those orders are nothing to play with, every word you say can be turned and used against you....
But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.

Man, I think you're full of it. Divorce is not about feelings? Right, that's why Costco carries them in a handy twelve pack. Are you cracked? Are you a Vulcan? I previously excused you from answering for precisely this reason. Your money's no good on my planet. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and permit myself to think you were acting with good intentions. Good or not, your delivery sucks and I'm done with you too. Buhbye.

Originally Posted by Cicero

I think Smurf and I know from experience here. Professional and otherwise. Please, please listen Deuce.

Perhaps you two do, I damn sure don't. I'm trying my hardest to do what needs to be done, to do the right thing, to achieve the greatest good while causing the least harm. It's not easy in the best of circumstances, and I appreciate the different perspectives here, the opportunity to share the wisdom gained from other's experiences. But, I must filter all that input into what works for my situation. rkzenrage's for example, not working for me. Thankfully, others here have offered insights that I can apply.

Originally Posted by Cicero

I'm sorry Deuce...your world turned into a paranoid thriller when your own wife said that you were a threat to her and your family. It's called reality...paranoid...yes...but also your new reality.

Either way- she shouldn't be talking to you. I don't know what you did. But she has got to stop- this can get you in deep doo-doo.

I know. It scares the shit out of me. But I'm not able to just walk away. I can't. I don't know how to explain that more betterer. Not talking is how we got into this fuckin mess. Somebody's got to talk to get us to any conclusion. Lord knows I'm motivated and, as you can plainly see, I'm a talker.

[Deuce]

jeeze I can't keep up with you guys. I'm not complaining, I find it helpful. It's just waay more input than I've had recently. Like coming back from a ... what do you call those things where you go away and enjoy the silence ... a retreat.

Yes, an enforced retreat (also known as solitary confinement). Please, continue.

[DanaC]

I thank you for your concern for me, truly I do. I would hope that you care for the things I care about too, which means a certain amount of compassion and respect for my wife. **I** give a shit about her.

My apologies Deuce, my words came out more harshly than I had intended. I was simply trying to get across to kgg, that here and now this community's main concern is you, as you are the dwellar. You are the one we are looking out for here. We're not here to be 'fair' we're here to be supportive, of you.

jeeze I can't keep up with you guys. I'm not complaining, I find it helpful.

Sorry mate, I think we bombarded you a little:P

[Deuce]

Thank you, I accept your apology.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.

As I said, I appreciate the input, some is helpful, some is less so. I freely admit that I do like what kgg says. I think his insights are valuable, and I do like hearing them. I also value the good intentions of all those concerned and generous enough to offer their input. Even rkzenrage, without qualification.

I am grateful.

[DanaC]

What's the current situation then Deuce? Did you sort out a lawyer?

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

I get two impressions here. One is that they are talking and attempting, at times, to work things through. She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.

Stop a minute. Correction. I am terrified of the potential downside of the restraining order. It is a MAJOR obstacle to our communication. I feel she ordered it to get some confidence that she would be protected physically, but had no idea what a communication block it represents. She said she was afraid what I would do when I got the news of the divorce. Those fears have proved to be completely unfounded.

Originally Posted by kgg

So Deuce, I ask you, do you really think she will call? I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner. Am I wrong? And one last thing, we don't know that she keeps calling him. He hasn't said that she is the one doing all the calling. It sounds like he is calling her too. Fess up man.

Yes, I think she will call. I think she will call if she gets the sense that her safety is at risk, or the safety of our son. I think you're right, she is afraid. But her fears are unfounded. The things she said she was worried might happen, never happened. I never became violent, I never took our son, I never stalked, threatened, harassed, approached, etc etc. Good grief.

Frankly she should call in those situations. But you don't need a restraining order to have that kind of protection. A restraining order doesn't make the cops get there any faster when you dial 911.

You mention care. I wish she cared. I wonder if she cares. If she does care, she's sending seriously mixed messages. I hope she cares. I care. I want to work things out too, and friendly is better.

I don't exactly follow you on what you want me to fess up about. Clarify please.

Originally Posted by DanaC

People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.

She could be lying, I don't know. I don't think so. I evaluate this continuously. When I feel endangered, I cease contact. I can't parent my son from jail. You're damn skippy the stakes are high. Nothing in my life has represented higher stakes than this. I am paying attention, you can bet the rent.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.

Some clarifications. I do love her. Not exactly the same as in love, though.

The relationship will not end, whether or not I want it to. I know the relationship will continue, because we have a young child together, that binds us.

I absofreakinlutely guarantee that the relationship will change. We can not continue as we are. The conflict, the arguing. **NOT** sustainable, not endurable, not healthy. We will change. We may be together, married. We may be together as divorced parents of a young child whom we both love. We may be divorced parents of a child we love that have not found a way to manage their conflict constructively and consequently limit the exposure and opportunity for conflict to the barest minimum. There will be a change, the current situation will not continue. I promise.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.

That's actually a good question, I don't know. Have I?

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Deuce, you haven't sounded at all mean spirited to me in your posts. You just sound like someone who is hurting.

Thanks. I don't want to sound mean. I am hurting. kgg, which ones were mean spirited?

Originally Posted by DanaC

Sometimes it isn't about changing, isn't about hardwork. Sometimes it is simply that two people are no longer compatible, are no longer good for each other. It's entirely possible that the things your wife says she can't deal with (like you being hurtful, or not being emotionally honest) are merely manifestations of that lack of compatibility. It's equally possible (indeed probable) that the same things that drew her to you now drive her from you.

wtf?

Originally Posted by DanaC

What may have seemed like strength and self sufficiency when she was in love, may seem like a lack of openness now. What may have seemed like passion and fire, may now seem like frightening anger.

The things that first attract us are often the things that later repel us.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, or dense, but I really don't understand what you're going on about? I get the words, but... :shakes head: I don't understand the changes stuff you described. Are you willing to try to explain it again?

Originally Posted by DanaC

You seem to believe this is your fault Deuce. You seem to have taken on all the responsibility for making this situation: like it's all because you can't express yourself or let her in, or are too angry and explosive. More likely, but more painful as it's fundamentally unfixable, is that the person she is now is not in love with the person you are now. That doesn't mean the peson you are is wrong.

shit.

I know I bear some responsibility for where we're at. Not all. My share. And whatever will become of us, will depend on how much I put into this change. Not all. My share. But if I put in as much as I can, I know I will have done my best, and that's all my Dad ever asked of me.

You could be right. Or at least partly right. I believe you are at least partly right.





Tell ya another little secret. I ain't buying the "unfixable" concept. There's a galactic gulf between can't and won't.

[kgg]

Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by smurfalicious

Which brings me to me next point: she doesn't want it to work. A restraining order is a pretty clear indication that she either (1) fears you and is removing you from her life, or (2) she's playing some kind of sick game because she wants it all on her terms, and do you really want any of that crazy-bitch action?

That's a fact jack!

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

You say you love your wife, but do you respect her?

Yes.

Do you require further support for my answer?

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?

She has said many things clearly not all of them the same. I am trying to listen and understand with my heart, as well as my head. The mixed messages are real. We all do it from time to time to some degree. So my acceptance, it's necessarily mixed too. The situation becomes even more complicated when *my* desires are incorporated into the mix.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.

Yes, I know. I agree. I have never obstructed or assisted her in the process of the divorce, all the times it has come up. I can not keep her. I don't want to keep her. I want to be near her because she wants to be near me. I want mutual affinity and affection. Not possession. Not a pet.

And I'm prepared to have my heart ripped out. I won't like it, but I will endure it.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).

You may be on to something here, but I may not be in the best position to verify it. I am heavily invested in her. But I am most definitely my own person. The roles I fill describe me, but they are not me, just as no map is the terrain.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.

If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?

Another good observation.

It certainly is possible and respectful to permit that space she's seeking. But to clarify, she wanted security, not space, as defined in the restraining order. If you go back and read some of the earlier posts, there were many calls from her while I was still reeling from the shock of the RO. This is an example of the mixed messages I've described. Space. Ok. Security. Ok. Contact. Ok. She's calling the shots, not me.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?

Another good point. Not quite a bullseye, though. There is no way to completely separate my relationship with my son from my relationship with my wife. Really. I can compartmentalize the two if necessary, but they overlap, they're not disjoint. You may rest assured that I will build the best strongest relationship possible with our son that I can manage, regardless of my relationship with my wife.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.

I respectfully disagree. I have spoken at length elsewhere describing my thoughts on this aspect, and I will not repeat them here, since you've obviously read them and brought my own quote into your remarks. Our ideas overlap, but we do not share the same focus.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.

Time and space will usually bring clarity.

You're right again. Thank you for your care and your effort to talk to me. I appreciate it.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.

Um, ok. Yes, I have called her over the course of this process, a number of times. There are at least three or four posts that talk about our conversations, some of which I initiated over the phone.

(lay off on that? wtf?)

Man, I am truthful and honest. Have I given you any reason to believe otherwise?

And while we're at it, which of my posts were mean spirited?

And

Originally Posted by DanaC

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

What's your answer to this question too? Come on, fess up.