Anonymous Mom, No Dads, + 14

[classicman]

I am skeptical and agree with Bruce.

[Pie]

Report: Octuplets May Not Be Allowed Home
The Los Angeles Times is reporting that officials at a California hospital where octuplets were born late last month may not let the mother take the babies home unless she proves she can care for them. The information comes from talk show host "Dr. Phil" McGraw; hospital officials at Kaiser Permanente Southern California have refused to comment directly but said that, "In general, mothers with multiple births who have babies in the neonatal intensive care unit are given advice and counsel about what they need to have in place to care for the children when they are discharged."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/health/25rounds.html

[toranokaze]

A grain of sanity in an ocean of insanity.

[sugarpop]

Here's a thought, just like people shouldn't use abortion as a form of birth control, people who can't conceive shouldn't use fertility treatments to have litters.

[Clodfobble]

Here's a thought, people who never wanted children should shut the fuck up about fertility treatments, lest they accidentally offend some of the millions of great parents out there who happened to need them. Oh, and they should consider dropping all metaphors that equate babies to dogs, while they're at it.

[sugarpop]

I wasn't talking about people who used fertility treatments to have a kid, or even two kids, I was talking about cases like this woman, who already had six kids, 3 of which are disabled, before popping out 8 more, even when she couldn't afford the ones she already had. It isn't natural, and it isn't right. That's why I used the derogatory term equating it to dogs.

It is still a valid point. And the fact that I have CHOSEN not to have kids does not invalidate my opinion or the point I was making. I know a LOT of people with kids who feel the same way.

[DanaC]

I must agree with Clod on the dog thing. I really dislike all these comparisons to dogs and litters. It's utterly dehumanising. It doesn't just speak to the case in point, it speaks to femininity and womanhood more generally.

I occasionally frequent a gaming board and it has an off-topic section. Debates about abortion routinely involve comments like "if the bitches are too stupid to keep their legs closed" or others referring to 'bitches' 'squeezing out another fucking brat'

The attitude of the young lads on that board actually shocked me. Very misogynistic, very aggressively anti-female. The most common similes and metaphors for women and childbirth relate to dogs. They almost always refer to women in those debates in animalistic terms and almost always negatively.

[Griff]

I think its a socialization issue, as much as people defend gaming there is a de-humanizing aspect to it. Combine that with the attitude that develops on boards where folks say anything to get a rise and you get a pretty toxic environment. I'm wondering if some these boys who may be outcasts in the real world develop a really unhealthy support system on-line. Thinking of the teens around my girls, I'm drawing some pretty unscientific conclusions but it is enough to warn them about.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The attitude of the young lads on that board actually shocked me. Very misogynistic, very aggressively anti-female. The most common similes and metaphors for women and childbirth relate to dogs. They almost always refer to women in those debates in animalistic terms and almost always negatively.

Gaming boards tend to bring a very specific population and with that comes rampant racism, sexism, and homopobia and where those viewpoints become dominant. I don't like throwing around stereotypes but for the most part, this group consists of very privileged teenage boys that only have observed interactions in a high school settings.

[DanaC]

It surprised me. And bear in mind, I've been bopping about the gaming boards for pretty much as long as gaming boards have existed. No word of a lie, there was a 'debate' on that board in which various young men posited their belief that females were naturally less capable of rational thought than males.

Along with other gems like "the problem with young women is they don't know how to entertain themselves" in a wider point about how to 'manage' one's relationship with a girl. That same poster was suggesting things like: "let her win the argument now and then, it'll make her feel good. There's nothing wrong with pretending she's as clever as you sometimes."

[Griff]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That same poster was suggesting things like: "let her win the argument now and then, it'll make her feel good. There's nothing wrong with pretending she's as clever as you sometimes."

This kid is starting to sound familiar...

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I wasn't talking about people who used fertility treatments to have a kid, or even two kids,

What about people who used fertility treatments and ended up with triplets? Or people who used fertility treatments to become pregnant with their third, or fourth consecutive child? The only relevant point is whether the parent can care for the children, not how they got them. You've made it very clear in other posts that you think having even one child is grotesquely irresponsible from a societal standpoint, so when you focus on the fact that she "can't conceive," rather than the fact that she has no money and is obviously not acting in her children's best interests, you come very close to implying that she was infertile 'for a reason' and should take the hint.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What about people who used fertility treatments and ended up with triplets? Or people who used fertility treatments to become pregnant with their third, or fourth consecutive child? The only relevant point is whether the parent can care for the children, not how they got them. You've made it very clear in other posts that you think having even one child is grotesquely irresponsible from a societal standpoint, so when you focus on the fact that she "can't conceive," rather than the fact that she has no money and is obviously not acting in her children's best interests, you come very close to implying that she was infertile 'for a reason' and should take the hint.

If you already have 3 or 4 kids, and can't have more, then adopt for chissakes. Why should someone with 3 or 4 kids be taking fertility treatments to have more?

I do not think people should quit having kids, I think they should quit having so many. 2 or 3 should be enough. Again, if it's not, adopt. I don't believe the only relevant point is whether they can afford them. There is a much bigger issue, IMHO.

I'm very sorry I offended so many people with my use of the word "litter," but that is what it reminds me of. Certain animals have litters of 5 or more babies, human beings do not, or rarely do, under natural circumstances. The problem I have with all of this, is it is happening under unnatural circumstances, and it is happening more and more. Maybe some people can't have children for a reason. Natural selection and all of that. I am all for science, but there needs to be a line somewhere, and IMHO, we crossed it quite a long time ago with regard to this particular practice.

[Pie]

The only question of merit in going the fertility treatment route is this: Can I adequately support this child or children, financially, emotionally and physically, from conception through maturity?

The same question ought to apply to all children, regardless of method of conception. Since more than half of all children were not planned (here in the States, at least), this is impossible.

FTR, I flunk the 'emotionally support' clause; therefore I am not planning on having kids.

[Clodfobble]

Also don't forget the fact that smart chicks tend to avoid the misogynistic jerks, leaving only the stupid chicks to hang around them... which reinforces their notion that all women are stupid.