Seriousness That Changed You

[Bullitt]

Not to hijack or anything, just wanted to share something I've been thinking about recently.
As some of you may remember my uncle has fairly advanced Alzheimer's. I posted about this awhile ago asking for some advice. Since then, he has deteriorated significantly and only keeps sliding downhill. As some background information, he is 75 and born in Manchester, England. And long story short, he is the closest thing my mother ever had to a father. She lived with in San Diego, CA with him and her sister, whom he was married to until 2001 when she died of cancer. My uncle and my mom's sister never had children, so when my aunt died he was alone. At that time we had just moved to Ohio. My uncle then started to show signs of Alzheimer's a year or so after that and my mother was basically the one in place to take care of him (also helps that she is an RN). She has been doing so since, making more and more frequent flights out there to take care of him and his needs as he declines even more. This brings us to the present.

My uncle got to the point this past fall where he could just not live on his own anymore. We had caretakers staying with him 24/7, and at overlapping hours during the day, but he realized in a moment of clarity that he does much better with everyday life when my mom is around. Thus, we had a family meeting and decided that my uncle would come live with us in Ohio. He is at this moment sleeping in my older brother's room and his cat is quarantined in the basement so that it doesn't get torn to shreds by our two older male cats. For those of you that have little knowledge about Alzheimer's, my uncle is basically like a 3 year old mentally. Physically, he is in amazing shape for his age. But he can't do things like realize when he needs to have a bowel movement, comprehend changing tv channels, know how to get in a car, forgets that his dinner plate full of food is in front of him, forgets where he is even while sitting in the same room for an hour, and he hallucinates things like these little snowmen we have around the house he sees as actual people, same with his reflection. He thinks his reflection in any bathroom mirror is this same guy who lives and works on the bathroom. So far he has been able to remember everyone in the family, but it is only a matter of time before that too fades away.

The "seriousness that changed me" in all of this is how I am not super close with my uncle. We have had the usual holiday and summer gatherings of family and meetings when we would fly out from TN or Ohio, phones calls and the like too. But I never really got to know him. And now that he has become a huge part of me and my family's life, I have heard about his background and history a bit from my mother. I never knew before that this giant painting of a ship hanging in his house is actually a painting of the ship that he and his older brother came over to the US in during WW2. It was a ship full of children that were escaping the bombings of England's major cities. I also never knew he was in the US air force and was stationed at an early warning radar station in Alaska during the Cold War. This man has so much history and so many experiences in his mind that he just cannot share anymore, and now I am too late to ever get to hear it.

Where I am going with this is that for as long as I can remember I have enjoyed being by myself more than being with others. I loved just sitting outside reading a book and and having maybe 3 or 4 close friends and thats it. Now, I have realized the importance of developing relationships with people, because you never know what you may be missing out on. The person sitting next to you may know something that can change your life, but you will never know until you initiate a relationship with them.

[Stormieweather]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Stormie, you made the wrong choice which resulted in pregnancy and being on your own.
It would appear you made mostly the right choices after that.
How did you know how to make those choices?
How did you know what to do and how to treat the kid?
Reading books? Asking friends? Emulating your mother?
Probably mostly the latter, in that you just raised the kid the way you remembered being raised.


But what if you hadn't been raised that way?

Oh noooo...my upbringing was horrific and I have made some terrible choices in my life. I do not condemn anyone for making mistakes, but I do believe you have to take responsibility for them. In particular, children are innocents and I feel strongly that a parent who keeps screwing up cannot turn around and blame the child for the way they turn out. Do as I say and not as I do doesn't cut it for kids.

I was a result of an affair by my bio mother and given up for adoption. My adoptive parents beat me and my adoptive father sexually molested me. My father also beat my mother and nearly killed her once. They divorced when I was 12. When I was 16, my mother traded me to my father for a Honda Civic.

I married the first man who asked and true to form (violence breeds violence), he beat me also. Broke my nose, dislocated my jaw, strangled me and kept me prisoner for several years in a foreign country. After I escaped that mess, I started college and was trying to get my life straight, when along came my son. I made the choice to bring him into the world...he had no say in the matter. I could have gotten an abortion or given him up, but I decided to keep him and raise him myself.

8 years later, I got married again. I was thinking that a male role model, a two-parent household, and a real house with a picket fence would be great for my son. Except I picked another abuser (that's all I knew). So 8 years later, after subjecting my son to an abusive step-father and a violent household, I divorced him also. Very bad choices I made..1-by not recognizing the abuser red flags and 2-by staying for much too long. During the marriage we had a daughter together. Near the end of the marriage, I was drinking heavily to numb out. By the time I left, my son was suicidal and that is what finally lit a fire under my ass. I brought him into this world and it was my responsiblity to provide stability and love. That was 7 years ago.

I got myself into counseling to figure out WHY I was making lousy choices. I quit drinking. I didn't date until I was sure I knew how to spot emotionally healthy individuals (it took 2 years of hard work on myself to get to that point). My 11 yr old daughter still has to deal with her abusive father via visitation and she is not turning out well. She is defiant, difficult, rude, and downright disobediant. Is that her fault? No...it is mine (and her father's). But I will not turn my back on her. I will keep trying to be a positive role model and I will always make sure she knows I love her (if not her behavior). I don't bully, manipulate, threaten or disrespect her because those are behaviors I will not tolerate personally, so what gives me the right to treat HER in a way that I will not accept?

I understand that OC has had a hard life and some devastating losses. My high school sweetheart was stabbed to death in our homeroom. I've been down her road. What I am attempting to address is that is isn't really fair to blame the child for how he turned out when he learned how to behave from the people in his life. There may be missing pieces to this story but I'm going by what has been written here.

I don't blame other people for my bad choices, I made them and I have to live with the consequences...as do my children. The best I can do is try not to repeat them and teach my children how to make better decisions. And love them...consistantly.

Stormie

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Kids learn what they see.

From reading this story, I see in OC's son, a child who has been rejected, abandoned, discarded, shuffled around, and generally taught that he is a burden, rather than a joy and a pleasure. He has most likely seen and been a target of abuse (the man raising him did not go from a responsible, kind, loving person to an axe murderer with no stops in between). My perception is that this child has been been taught to manipulate, disrespect, and to use hostility in an attempt to control his surroundings and those he is in contact with.

First, let me state that I didn't have him for the first 7 years. I got pregnant, was forced to get married, and *I* knew I couldn't (1) cope and (2) afford to raise a child. He was given to my husband's family, in my attempt to give him a better life, and *not* pay for my mistakes.

When the indictments were made, they said I could come get him or he would go into foster care. By this time, I was married to a capable, stable, responsible man. I was fully intending on being married to this man forever. This man, who had never seen this child, came home early from TDY in Turkey, got a loan, and took me and my other son (the autistic one) who was 15 months old back to the US (we were living in England at the time) and hired an attorney to get this boy back.

Those seven years, he did not live with his bio-unit. He thought his bio-unit was his cousin, and that his great aunt and uncle were his parents. He didn't know who I was until the police brought him to me.

As it turned out, the people I trusted to raise this little boy were not a good choice. They had issues and were involved in a murder. Had I known this, OBVIOUSLY I would have taken steps to get him legally adopted via an agency or something, then this whole mess would never have happened.

No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?

From day one, he was treated with respect and love, and was loved and nurtured JUST AS MUCH as Bryan was. I told him that day (I'll never forget it) that I would never lie to him, but there would be times when I would feel like he wasn't ready for information, so I would tell him, "I'm not going to answer that". I stayed true to my word.

We had a GREAT relationship, an open relationship, to the point he was comfortable talking to me about sex and drugs. He had never been disrepectful (other than occasionally going over the top trying to be funny, but I chalked that up to him discovering and refining his sense of humor). I was NOT prepared for what happened. And it was so freakin fast....

Calling his girlfriend Ms Thang is highly disrespectful and contemptous.

I don't think so. This is how people talk where I live (where he lived). And I didn't want to use her real name, since this is a public forum.

Dismissing her due to her upbringing and background is pretty snotty and pretentious, given that none of us are perfect.

I think you're confusing Miss Thang (giver of the necklace) and Sam (the one that's pregnant). Two different girlfriends.

Miss Thang I liked. She seemed to have her head screwed on pretty straight for the most part, had a plan, and was intent on sticking to it.

Sam I don't care for. I've spoken to her on the phone twice, and both times she's come off as dumb as a brick. Her decisions have been as dumb or dumber than my more stupid ones. *HE* is the one that called her parents hicks, I merely parroted that back to him. I also mentioned that these "hicks" were kind enough to give him a home and feed him when they didn't have to. That bit never made it through.

OC has not done a very good job of making wise choices,

I have made some pretty stupid decisions, that's true. And I've paid dearly, and accepted responsibility for those decisions.

so it doesn't seem to me that she has any room to condemn another person for theirs.

Well, first, condemnation is defined as:to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of.

And as he is my son, I have absolute room to condemn him. If we're talking about Joey down the road, you're right, I don't.

And SINCE I made those mistakes, and since he KNEW about those mistakes and SAW firsthand consequences of them, I thought he would know better than to put himself in a similar position. (meaning the whole pregnancy thing.)

I think one of the main problems here is that many of you are talking about why he went to Dave's in the first place, and I'm more concerned with what happened once he got there.

Calling him Boy is depersonalizing and humiliating. He is not a piece of furniture to be dropped off at Uncle Jack's when your life has no room for him.

If I considered him as valuable as a piece of furniture, I wouldn't worry about him, or have posted any of this at all. Why would you even make that analogy??

Or discarded when you think he isn't filling YOUR needs adequately.

It's not, nor has it EVER been about him fulfilling MY needs. Please quote where I said that "he didn't fulfill my needs as a mother, so I took him to David's house."

This kid didn't ask to be brought into the world. OC made that choice. Once she made that choice, she was responsible for him. OC could have chosen to give him up for adoption, ensuring a better chance at a healthy, functional life, but no...she chose to dump him at someone's house who had no ties to him...a person with no motivation to adequately care for him and raise him lovingly and responsibly.

This is just plain wrong. It's obvious you haven't read the whole thread. Why are you making judgements against me?

I am simply amazed that he has turned out as well as he has. He must be one very tough cookie to have survived the life he has been subjected to (but did NOT deserve).

Tough, yes. He's had a hard road to hoe. He's a survivor, like I am. Probably the only thing he's running on right now.

At 18, a young man probably doesn't know all the reasons he is attracted to the things he is. OC had the perfect opportunity to bond a little and have a reasonable discussion about the origins and meaning behind the necklace, but she chose instead to attempt to control her son's choices through verbal violence and manipulation.

Man. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I am completely unsurprised at his response. If that incident is representative of the interaction between the two of them, both are probably better off without being in each others lives. I can only hope that the legacy that this child has been given does not get passed on to the next generation.

It will. The curse works.

In case anyone is wondering where I am coming from with all this, I had a son out of wedlock, 18 years ago. His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception. I knew that I was responsible for this human being and how his life turned out. I dropped out of college, worked two jobs for many years to support us, and gave up many personal desires and goals in order to be the very best mother that I could be. We've been through a lot together, he and I, but I'll tell you one thing...he has never doubted that I love him deeply and will always be there for him, no matter how much I disapprove of his choices. I have always treated him with dignity and respect and in return, he treats me the same. I've taken in teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they were 'uncontrollable'. Guess what? They don't need forceful control, they need respect and dignity. I give it to them and they respond in kind.

Goody?

And if my son came home wearing a gf's Wiccan necklace, I would not force him to take it off, even if it meant nothing whatsoever to him. He is 18 and I would never dream of trying to control his personal choices to such a degree.

Well my son was 17, and I was well within my rights as (1) his mother and (2) the person paying his rent/utilities/food/clothing/healcthcare/ROTC trips/uniforms/school functions/phone bills/internet bills/etc to make a REASONABLE REQUEST and expect it to be (1) immediately complied with, and if he doesn't like it, (2) have a discussion about it AFTER he complied with it.

That's how I was raised, and it's how I've raised all three of my children.

Violence breeds violence. Hostility breeds hostility. Disrespect breeds disrespect. This child learned all of that from his family of origin.

Stormie

How....cliche of you to say so. Unfortunately, as a few people have already stated, not all children raised in the same perfect household turn out bright and shiny members of society. So you ASSUME that it's my bad parenting that's caused all of this "poor boy's" problems. Nice. Are you always this judgemental and clueless or only when posting on forums?

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Kids learn what they see.

From reading this story, I see in OC's son, a child who has been rejected, abandoned, discarded, shuffled around, and generally taught that he is a burden, rather than a joy and a pleasure. He has most likely seen and been a target of abuse (the man raising him did not go from a responsible, kind, loving person to an axe murderer with no stops in between). My perception is that this child has been been taught to manipulate, disrespect, and to use hostility in an attempt to control his surroundings and those he is in contact with.

No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?

Calling his girlfriend Ms Thang is highly disrespectful and contemptous. Dismissing her due to her upbringing and background is pretty snotty and pretentious, given that none of us are perfect. OC has not done a very good job of making wise choices, so it doesn't seem to me that she has any room to condemn another person for theirs. Calling him Boy is depersonalizing and humiliating. He is not a piece of furniture to be dropped off at Uncle Jack's when your life has no room for him. Or discarded when you think he isn't filling YOUR needs adequately.

This kid didn't ask to be brought into the world. OC made that choice. Once she made that choice, she was responsible for him. OC could have chosen to give him up for adoption, ensuring a better chance at a healthy, functional life, but no...she chose to dump him at someone's house who had no ties to him...a person with no motivation to adequately care for him and raise him lovingly and responsibly.

I am simply amazed that he has turned out as well as he has. He must be one very tough cookie to have survived the life he has been subjected to (but did NOT deserve).

At 18, a young man probably doesn't know all the reasons he is attracted to the things he is. OC had the perfect opportunity to bond a little and have a reasonable discussion about the origins and meaning behind the necklace, but she chose instead to attempt to control her son's choices through verbal violence and manipulation. I am completely unsurprised at his response. If that incident is representative of the interaction between the two of them, both are probably better off without being in each others lives. I can only hope that the legacy that this child has been given does not get passed on to the next generation.

In case anyone is wondering where I am coming from with all this, I had a son out of wedlock, 18 years ago. His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception. I knew that I was responsible for this human being and how his life turned out. I dropped out of college, worked two jobs for many years to support us, and gave up many personal desires and goals in order to be the very best mother that I could be. We've been through a lot together, he and I, but I'll tell you one thing...he has never doubted that I love him deeply and will always be there for him, no matter how much I disapprove of his choices. I have always treated him with dignity and respect and in return, he treats me the same. I've taken in teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they were 'uncontrollable'. Guess what? They don't need forceful control, they need respect and dignity. I give it to them and they respond in kind.

And if my son came home wearing a gf's Wiccan necklace, I would not force him to take it off, even if it meant nothing whatsoever to him. He is 18 and I would never dream of trying to control his personal choices to such a degree.

Violence breeds violence. Hostility breeds hostility. Disrespect breeds disrespect. This child learned all of that from his family of origin.

Stormie

Which is why we will never hit my child. My family is having a hard time with it.

A pentagram is an early Christian symbol. Many flowers and fruits are considered holy because of it. The five wounds of Christ are symbolized by it.

[Deuce]

When the time comes for the youngster to leave the nest, they go.

Conflict can arise from many sources, especially if one of the parties is not ready when it happens. The bigger the difference, the bigger the potential for conflict. On top of that, each side, the parent and the child can be internally conflicted too. "I want to go, I'm scared to go, I can't stand it here, I don't know how I'll handle it out there..." round and round and round.

Talk is all we got to smooth over these inevitable transitions. If the talk is harsh, the transition, already tense, becomes a conflict.

You can't keep them. They can't stay past some point. And the worst part is KNOWING there will be pain. There WILL be mistakes. As a parent, it takes unimaginable courage to deliberately send your precious child into harm's way, that big old mean old world. It may be some small comfort knowing that that course is at least safer than permitting them to stay home with the tigers.

But dammit, somebody's got to be the adult. The only question is, who's the best one for that job?

[OnyxCougar]

Here is the discussion on IM about the necklace. Edited for names, text color changed for emphasis.

Mom says: you're drawing that stuff to you and then wondering why you're having a hard time with things
Boy says: like that matters i dont beleve in any of it Mom says: well you should, because its real, not just in a christian god and devil sense, but in a wiccan/pagan sense as well. you run around with a pagan star on, but dont believe it? that makes you a hypocrite
Boy says: i dont run round with a pagen star on
Mom says: your necklace, gimboid
Boy says: its a star made out of paper clips
Mom says: it's a pagan star.
Boy says: mm k, is that bad
Mom says: dont mmkay me, it's not bad if you know how to use it but you shouldn't be wearing it if you don't know what it is or how to use it
Boy says: hmmm
Mom says: that star identifies you as a pagan, just like a cross identifies you as a christian.
Boy says: mmm well i dont know right now right now im dont care
Mom says: then take it off, because i care
Boy says: u want me to take off my star
Mom says: if you dont care about it, dont care what it represents, dont know what it's for, then yeah, i want you to take it off
Boy says: well i like it so im guna keep it
Mom says: i dont care if you keep it, just dont wear it. OR if you want to wear it then make an effort to find out what is stands for, what it's used for, and how to use it. until that time, dont wear it
Boy says: well i did look it up i got web sight on my favorits and i dont get it and im not guna and so im nut guna read more on it
Mom says: then dont wear it
Boy says: im guna its part of the nekless im guna keep it on till it falls off or (Miss Thang) takes it to chang it
Mom says: take it off or learn what it's for. those are your options.
Boy says: so what if i dont do ither
Mom says: then I will take it off you when I get home and take it. dont push this. I'm serious.
Boy says: so am i i want to keep it and when i feal it nessisary to look in on it i will
Mom says: then take off the necklace until then.
Boy says: sorry but no (Miss Thang) gave it to me (Miss Thang) takes it form she she changes it and she will when she wants to
Mom says: let me put it to you this way. there is no arguement here. if i see it on you i will snatch the shit off. I will not tolerate arguement here. if you wont learn what it's for, you wont wear it. period.
Boy says: im not arguing im saying im not taking it off, dont know y u so mad about it u have yet to have a problem with it till now
Mom says: because I thought you knew what it was for. it never occured to me you'd be wearing a religious symbol and not know what it is
Boy says: well i am and ill look in to it when im ready cus at this point in my life god and all that junk ant on my top 10 things to do in my life. and u should know this i have told u more then 1 one time so i ant taking it off i like it were it is and i like it even more cus (Miss Thang) gaveit to me and it is somthingdear and near to her and so it means even more ot me
Mom says: I am telling you. Take it off or I will. This is one I will not back down from.
Boy says: ok
Mom says: I will giveyou alot of room to do your thing, son, but this is not one of those things. I understand (Miss Thang) gave it to you, and I understand (Miss Thang) knows what it is for but you don't. and she shouldn't have given to you without teaching you what it is, what it represents and how to use it. that was wrong of her.
Boy says: well u can takw it i know how to make it again
Mom says: I dont care if you have it, keep it in your pocket if you want.You will not display it.
Boy says: u take it i make a nother and replace it
Mom says: I don't want to take it.
Boy says: so dont
Mom says: I just don't want you wearing it. Your attitude is seriously pissing me off. This is your only warning.
Boy says: i didnt know i had a attitude i dont know y u think i do cus im actualy happy and all cheer. im sorry didnt mean to but im not taking it off
Mom says: then I'll take it off you.
Boy says: ok ill just make more to replace it
Mom says: *shrugs* as long as I don't see it on you, I dont' care.
Boy says: well u might cus i run round with my shirt off all the time
Mom says: in addition, I consider this an act of defiance.
Boy says: ok
Boy says: well it kinda is u telling me to do somthing and im telling u no so it is
Mom says: ok. I suggest you walk to the store and make arrangements for someplace to sleep. you will not defy me and live in my house. not going to happen.
Boy says: ok
Mom says: i will not tolerate disrespect.
Boy says: i know
Mom says: so you choose to move out.
Boy says: if u dont want me to defi u and i cant live here if i do then i cant do what i want how i wnat it i cant wear what i wnat how i want
Mom says: ok. pack your shit, leave your key on the counter. computer stays with me
Boy says: can i come back in a few weeks to get the rest of my stuff
Mom says: nope no coming back. you leave me, you leave for good
Boy says: nope so icant come get my close dad got me
Mom says: better pack a big bag.
Boy says: mm k

Now, at the same time, the following conversation was happening in his other IM window with Miss Thang:

Boy: mom is bitching about teh star on the nekless
Pretty: ? why?
Boy: says i should studdy it or take it off
Pretty: umm no becuas eit's mine. and you're wearing it as a representation of me. and if she has a problem with it she can take it up with me whenever I come back over. and I'll tell her what I tell every one else. it's mine. my choice. I'm not makeing you wear it
Boy: Boy says: sorry but no (Miss Thang) gave it to me (Miss Thang) takes it form she she changes it and she will when she wants to
Pretty: that's really confusing
Boy: she telling me to take it off thats what i told her
Pretty: I know. but you're statement was confusing.
Boy: mm
Pretty: like...(Miss Thang) takes it form she she changes it and she will when she wants to. that part
Boy: mmm
....6 minutes later....


Boy: moms bithcign at me its kinda fun
Pretty: what about?
Boy: let me vent
Pretty: what about?
Boy: the star
Pretty: what about now?
Pretty: *about it*
Boy: same thing i dont know what it reperesenc so i should not display it
Pretty: I do and you're wearing it as a representation of me. I give gifts to my friends and they have no clue what parts of them are. cus it's somethign incorporating a protection rune or sigil. they just know it looks cool and wear it like I tell them to. or keep it where I tell them to. black is the color of the crone, the color of supposedly death. but I don't think so. it's the color of abscence and secrecy. but becuase it's tied to teh crone I tie it also to wisdom. old wisdom.
Boy: hmmm
Pretty: this why I have it as part of the twining. silver is the feminine color. the pentegram can be considered a representation of the five elements. becuase it is tied to the base of our world the combination of it and the black and the silver to me represent a tie to the base of our world. and it represents I'm showing a want for the base wisdom, the stuff that really matters. the stuff you learn the hard way and through life. if you let it teach you. so I skimped a little bit when I told you it was my reprisentation of my body and the physical relm. that's another aspect of it's being there
Boy: hmm i got to go hon
Pretty: but not th emajor one
Pretty: okay baby

As I said, all I wanted him to do was take it off UNTIL he could tell me what it meant. His girlfriend was FEEDING him the information, in pretty simplied terms. All he had to do was so, ok Mom, I'll take it off and when I tell you what it means, can I put it back on? Yes. Problem solved.

Again, this was the last straw in a very long list of smaller defiances that I had warned him about but didn't take (what I consider) action on. I told him time and time again, and I'm not the only one, mind you. My best friend (who the kids consdered an aunt) and my husband and my mother ALL tried to tell him before it got to this point, Dude, just hang in 6 more months.

Hopefully now we can stop focusing on the necklace and actually get to the main reason I wrote all this stuff in the first place.... what now?

He is aware I'm not after his kid. He's also aware that he's deeply hurt me with the emails he sent. He's also never apologized for any of his actions, and still insists on foisting all of the responsibility for his decisions (not only the ones forcing him to move to Dave's but also the ones since he's been down there and I've had absolutely nothing to do with) off on me.

[lumberjim]

i only have one question......why aren't you posting in indigo?

[Undertoad]

Hopefully now we can stop focusing on the necklace and actually get to the main reason I wrote all this stuff in the first place...

If we do talk about it, is it an act of defiance?

I know you pushed each others' buttons, but it seems like your button was big and red and ten feet tall in the living room.

Give a teenage boy a wall with a sign that says "wet paint" and 99 times out of 100 he will touch it.

Give a teenage boy an ultimatum, and 9 times out of 10 he will violate it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Give a teenage boy a wall with a sign that says "wet paint" and 99 times out of 100 he will touch it.

and the other time he'll pee on it.





sorry, as you were......

[monster]

What do you do from here?

Wipe the slate clean. Demonstrate forgiveness and love. Explain, don't argue. Help him protect and keep his child. Seems to me that all you have to lose is pride.

[monster]

...start communicating in real time, in person. Go see him, call him, take him for a beer/whatever is legal there.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Give a teenage boy an ultimatum, and 9 times out of 10 he will violate it.

Not in my fathers house.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by LabRat

I agree, but also contend that there are inherent differences in each child also.

I let a bit of frustration at my brother's lack of caring for anything but himself cloud my judgement there. I view him as a total loser, and most I know who have met us both agree.

I'm in almost the exact same situation, LabRat. Everyone who has ever met my brother and me has marveled that the same parents could have somehow raised both of us. It's actually made me a little terrified that one or more of my children will manage to turn out like him despite our best efforts.

People say the same about my parents raising me... I am opposite from both of them, in different ways.

[Perry Winkle]

While we're talking about relative differences --

My brother and I are two sides of a coin. He's the face and I'm the tail.

I look like my father, he looks like my mother. I act like my mother, he acts like my father. He's outgoing, I'm not; he's a creature of outward focus, I'm a creature of inward focus.

We have so much shared life context that we can talk for hours, and you won't understand most of it.

Even though we're 6 years different in age we're as close as twins.