Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son

[xoxoxoBruce]

It's still what could be done now and what might be done in the future as separate possibilities.

[Flint]

As outlined by a lengthy text description, coupled with a disconnected image that relates to a concept which is not explained at all. Confusing.

[piercehawkeye45]

I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now. If you tell and show someone that society hates them, that person will be more likely to fight back and rebel against society.

Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisons and not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in. A lot of prisons have many books for prisoners to read and learn (some are actually being banned now) and if we expand on that, some good could actually come out of the prison system instead of what we have now. It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now.

It won't... kill them now.

[9th Engineer]

Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisonsand not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in.

In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money. If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society? If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed. If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.

It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.

I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?

I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by glatt

I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.

Yep- right on Glatt. Except, as in the case of my brother, he is disabled with a severe mental disability and he keeps getting picked up and taken to jail instead of a nuthouse where he could get treated for it. He is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. His "crimes" are benign...his handicaps are severe.
Our jails are full of addicts and mentally handicapped people or a combination thereof.
Whaddaya know...they are 10 times worse when they get out. Why? Because people like my brother weren't a damned criminal in the first place, handicapped, and sent to a hostile environment. He can't even put it together for his own defense!!! He's guilty always by reason of insanity even when he's innocent. He cannot even communicate his own innocence! Because he doesn't know what happened!!!!
The crazy guy obviously started the trouble......bullshit. He has actually been bullied, victimized, and can't even comprehend his own innocence nor voice it in some situations. Off to jail with ya- just because you are the one that's obviously broken. Has nothing to do with the events or facts....he just seems like he needs to be locked up.....I know they are thinking- he must be on some heavy shit...No...he's handicapped....


I also know a guy that was a little slow.....he kept getting picked up for over-reacting in his own defense, he wasn't so stupid that he didn't know that people were making fun of him and a lot of assholes were....instead of delivering him to a costly facility- they kept taking him to jail too.
Instead of hitting the people that were being jerks he would hit a news stand or something else out of impotent rage.....I think the people making fun of him should have gone to jail instead. Talk about baiting someone weaker until they over-react just cuz ya can. Fuck 'tards......

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money.

And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance? As Dana pointed out, you are generalizing all criminals into one group which is about as far from the truth as you can get. Some people, I actually know one person that almost did this, commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge and others turn to drug dealing because it is more profitable than working a minimum wage job. Are these people bad, no, just that they just choose a life of crime because a life without crime is not reasonable or worth it.

If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?

Hopelessness, social environment, and that a life of crime is more reasonable and profitable for the non-anti social people. Anti-social behavior can not be changed so you have to a separate group fro that. This starts to get into the topic of how poverty affects crime levels.

As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society?

I never said change the length of time.

If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed.

It is how they are doing time, not the actual process of being punished for crimes. If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. That gives a very good insight about how criminals view their lives, hopelessness usually, and if you take away that hopelessness, things can change for the better. If you take two people that committed the same crime with the same social background prior to the criminal activity and lock them up, one with a feeling of hopelessness and one with a feeling that you can get back on your feet if you choose too when released, the outcome of the two people will most certainly be different when they are both let out. What I am proposing is to change prisons from a general feeling of hopelessness to rehabilitation so they can back on track when they leave and you have not addressed that point. Of course some people will not choose to change, but separation of those two groups should be relatively easy and those two groups can get separate punishments.

If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.

You are making an assumption that those are the only two options...

I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?

You can't clump all criminals into one group or even a majority because there probably isn't a majority. There are very smart criminals that have chosen a life a crime because it suit them best, some are stupid clots, some are anti-social (link to article on real anti-social behavior) in nature and are hopeless to reeducate, some are misguided, some are there because of accidents and so on. There should be a system to separate the ones that can be helped from the ones that can't and work on both groups separately.

The best thing we could do for the prison system would be to decriminalized illegal drugs.

[9th Engineer]

And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance?

Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards. I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.

commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge

These people are not an issue at all. I'd be willing to bet that a prison system full of them would be a walk in the park to manage.

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

I'd be willing to debate the issue of decriminalizing drugs from a practical perspective, but we'll need a new thread for that. I won't say where I stand on it in here to avoid a drift.

Separation is a good idea, and would go a very long way towards solving lots of problems. It's probably extremely hard to do in real life, but that's partially why I think prisons should not be built around large common areas. I have a tiny bit more on this in a different thread I think.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

snip~
If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. ~snip

And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.

[DanaC]

The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years.

Oh that's so sweet...you define 20-40 years as far future. Aww bless.

[DanaC]

How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?

They are generally people who have committed crimes. Beyond that it's hard to generalise when you are talking about somany individuals.

[DanaC]

Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.

Actually after editing law-books, manuals, and online resources for a living, compounded with getting to see things in my personal life as they play out...I would say I have absolutely no faith and not only that-no proof that the judicial system works. Excuse me, I mis-spoke, it only works for a small segment of the population...who it was fashioned to protect.
Ha Ha! One of my favorite comedians dropped out of pre-law. Had to get a sense of humor first I suppose.

[9th Engineer]

The three most terrible words in the english language: Trial By Jury

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/letsgotoprison/