Self Policing Militia Summons

[Undertoad]

Somebody said something like "I want to hate Griff for his politics, but he built his own house, and that is cool." Bout 8 years ago I think it was said. That's what it's all about.

~

So Dux (I will talk about you here in the third person) posting just to have a lefty voice responding, or whatever, gives his posts an eerie motivation, and grants him all the "Cellar relevancy" as the next Indonesian link spammer. He should no longer wonder why people carp at him. That is why.

In the tavern analogy, he sits and waits for the other tables to have a conversation that he can respond to, and once he hears a keyword, he jumps in, sits at that table, puts in his two cents, and then quietly leaves when the topic changes.

Indeed, if you do an advanced search for threads started by him, you will find only two of them - in about four years of participating.

He has chosen a popular tavern, but basically chosen it because it's the one closest to his house. If the tavern burns down he will have no concern and just move on to the next one down the road. Who is at the tavern, what's on the menu, what's on the jukebox, all sort of irrelevant.

(But if you ask why he is a Democrat, he may answer, compassion for others.)

(I was friends with a self-described Socialist, once, who pretty much hated 98% of people. I still don't quite understand it.)

Ut...I get what you're saying but I just dont agree.

I dont want to come as self-promoting, but I think I contribute to discussions...and in a way that is not purely partisan

Take the recent discussion with Bruce on the Voting Rights Act...it is not a D v R issue...it is offering my understanding the law.

[lumberjim]

It's not like we're desperate to know about your personal life, redux. We're just trying to help you understand why you get no allowance for being human like others do.

have it any way you want it, just don't be bitter when we show you no consideration or compassion in matters like this. I don't care about you at all, for example. I actually care more about spexxvet, and I can't STAND that sonofabitch.

Originally Posted by lumberjim

It's not like we're desperate to know about your personal life, redux. We're just trying to help you understand why you get no allowance for being human like others do.

have it any way you want it, just don't be bitter when we show you no consideration or compassion in matters like this. I don't care about you at all, for example. I actually care more about spexxvet, and I can't STAND that sonofabitch.

Jim....I'm not bitter.

Quite the contrary, I took the need to be respectful very seriously....but the other rules of engagement make me chuckle.

Now I am off to lunch with friends at a new restaurant. I probably wont report back with a critique of the menu.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Redux

Jim....I'm not bitter.

Quite the contrary, I took the need to be respectful very seriously....but the other rules of engagement make me chuckle.

Now I am off to lunch with friends at a new restaurant. I probably wont report back with a critique of the menu.

Oh please! We want to know all about it! I do anyway.

[lumberjim]

that's just his own particular ƒucking idiom.

[BigV]

thinkin out loud here....

A little bird told me I should read this thread; I have though it took me two days and my lips are really tired now. I didn't bother with it for at first because I just don't care what lumberjim says anymore. And that still applies. He has his standards, and mostly I don't think much of them. In this case, however, I share his and others' sadness that the quality of the dialog in the politics discussions, and many other places here has declined, due mostly to the way many posts are put into the conversation.

To me, the name calling, the profanity, is nothing at all like a conversation. It is a shouting match. With bullhorns. To extend the popular and useful tavern analogy, when this happens it is like a loud disturbing ruckus. The analogy breaks down here for a good reason. In the tavern, there'd be a fight and some resolution at least to the point where the volume dropped again. But that doesn't happen here, because they can't "settle this like men, once and for all". They're stuck, using the only violence delivery method they have, more fucking shouting. It never gets solved. Mostly because in a shouting match, you're just trying to intimidate your opponent into backing down or running away. That never works here, because it just isn't that scary--oooo he's shouting at me--we're a bunch of internet hardcases, unintimidateable. It makes regular conversations for others nearby difficult or impossible.

But, the very thing that makes it last (on and on) here is the same thing that makes it ignorable. Just read around them.

It is not a conversation. It is not an attempt at an exchange of ideas. It is just noise. Content free noise. And it should be treated accordingly. I mute it or move away from it. If we were in the tavern, telling the shouters to shut up would be unlikely to work. I think it is just as unlikely to work here. Let them rave. I say this because I don't want *my* speech to be judged and censored. I don't think the rule "don't be intolerably irritating" has been violated. I think making more rules is not necessary. I don't think putting the onus on the moderators to protect me from this noise is appropriate (nor would it be successful in the long term).

The Golden Rule works here. Some want to shout at each other, presumably wanting or expecting me to shout back. I decline. I want silence from them, so I show them silence. I want dialog. I want conversation, to exchange ideas. This is the main way I learn.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by BigV

thinkin out loud here....

A little bird told me I should read this thread; I have though it took me two days and my lips are really tired now. I didn't bother with it for at first because I just don't care what lumberjim says anymore. And that still applies. He has his standards, and mostly I don't think much of them.

This may be the most polite ad hominem insult I've received. But you realize that you've admitted that at one time you DID care what I said. Does this mean you're breaking up with me?

[lookout123]

Regardless of the outcome, thanks for the thread Jim. It has led me to look at my own relationship with the cellar and that is a good thing, I think.

It seems the Classic side of this equation has been settled while the Redux/Merc angle is still playing out. Some have said that Merc is a troll and to a degree I agree. In the politics forums he does troll for reactions with his "demoncrat" this and "republickan" that (or whatever his current names are) persistently. I find it unfortunate as I think he has some views which would be quite useful if they were presented in a more professional manner. If this thread causes him to stop and rethink his presentation then great, but I don't really think it will. I may be way off base but I picture Merc sitting at home chuckling to himself as he pushes the popcorn smilie button. It amuses him to stir the shit, which is definitely an attribute of a troll. (which can be fun if not overused) He offsets some of that by actually being a real person in the other threads though, so for me that is a positive.

It seems like the consensus is that Redux is not a troll because he posts grammatically correct spellchecked posts with citations. Fair enough, but imo Redux is every bit as much of a troll as Merc. The only real difference is Redux is better/more subtle at it. His posts drip with condescension for anyone who holds an opposite view. He rarely offers any insight as to why he believes something or what makes him tick. A thread is started and after a couple of people have posted their thoughts (usually without citations) he drops in some citations that would support an opposing view but gives no glimpse as to why his view of the world brings him to hold some things as good and some things as bad. He's like the cellar's resident research assistant, so long as you only want the left leaning research. Without any original thoughts his posts offer nothing of value, imo.

For me, the cellar is about people. 6 years ago I'd try to explain a story or interaction from the cellar to Mrs L and she thought I was an idiot for telling stories about the internet, but after all this time (with only intermittent first hand visits) she gets the cellar. While she doesn't visit often she asks about some of the events described, issues with kids, or someone's view on a particular issue. She understands the cellar is about the people and their personalities, not just a bunch of regurgitated facts. We have political aggregators for each partyline if that's all you're looking for. I don't really value posters, but I do appreciate dwellars.

That being said, this is a self policing community and as such will police itself. If the drama continues more dwellars will drift away which will be a shame, but the cellar will carry on as new people will come in and pick up where they left off. It is up to the individual dwellar to decide if the cellar (or any community) is a net positive or negative in their life and then decide to do something (or not) about it.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

This may be the most polite ad hominem insult I've received. But you realize that you've admitted that at one time you DID care what I said. Does this mean you're breaking up with me?

lumberjim, no insult was intended. In the past, when I knew less about you, I paid more attention to you. As time went on and I learned more about you, I realized that there was an increasing number of instances when I disagreed with your point of view and found the way you expressed it distasteful. Consequently, I just paid (much) less attention to what you said. This plan has worked well for me.

I get your joke. I usually get them, I usually find them unfunny. Yes, I realize and admit I once held you in higher esteem than I now do. I don't feel the need to reopen any of that shit show now. Nor do I feel the need to insult you. I think you're a smart guy, but with a mean streak. I don't like that, so I give us each the space to get along by mostly ignoring you.

Looking back, I could have made my whole post without that bit. I included it as a demonstration of my willingness to walk my talk. I hope you, and all the others here can find a way to enjoy the interactions here. This is an awesome place. I was just trying to illustrate one way I've succeeded in overcoming a difficulty *I* had that I think is similar to the point you opened the thread with.

[skysidhe]

ok

[monster]

ooh look, everyone, Tikiman is here! The caped crusader once again arrives with a flaming torch to save the day, righting all wrongs and putting everyone back in their place. Hurrah!

[Shawnee123]

Eh, fuck this.

[gvidas]

If the complaint is that the intensity and length of dwellar-on-dwellar strife has increased, and shows no sign of cathartically ending itself or being otherwise resolved, then what caused it? We're talking about 20 years of society changing around the Cellar, during which time the moderation philosophy hasn't significantly changed. I don't really think that anyone named in this thread is uniquely responsible, in the sense that "if only so and so were gone this problem would never again arise."

- in the Cellar's time, the internet has gone mainstream. It's becoming a larger and larger part of people's lives. Does the ever-smaller gap between "stuff on the internet" and "real life" make it easier for people to be passionate about something they read on the internet?

- in America right now we're in the middle of a bubble of pretty strong partisanship, where peoples' political views are mostly either passionate or nonexistant. Is this just how politics are now?

I dunno. But I do think that the Cellar being able to resolve this in a way that doesn't force homogeneity is important, both for the Cellar's wellbeing and as an example of what the future of communities might hold.

[HungLikeJesus]

This thread seems to be tending towards that thing it's trying to prevent.