Middle East erupts

[DanaC]

Ahhh.....The Land I spent many happy hours there:P well, alright not exactly happy.....more tense as fuck and often harrowing, but hey not all fantasies are fun
(Have you read Runes of the Earth by the way?)

[DanaC]

I think that's a very interesting strategy UG is employing there. I can see how in a battle of intellects, being bent over a fence and sandbagged must be the ultimate riposte. Gosh, they must feel so silly. Egg in their faces really.

[Trilby]

Dana, you say that Israel should 'do like hzblh wants' and do a prisoner exchange. why on earth should Israel do what hzblh wants? Your crying foul because Israel didn't respond "correctly" to these thugs? then you ask for a fair fight. I say don't pick on someone who can squash you.

Why is it that if someone is big and burly they are called upon to show restraint when provoked? "Look, I know that little guy keeps hitting you and hitting you and spitting on you, but, you're so big...just take it, ok? Let him do whatever he wants to you coz you are big and rich. Let him piss on you if he wants, ok?" Rubbish.

[Undertoad]

That's the new theory - and it may be right, that if Israel allowed the attacks to go on and did nothing about it, they would eventually be seen as the highly moral actor.

To get there, all a culture needs to do is to collectively reach a Gandhi-esque level of moral development in over 50% of its population, before it reaches a level of learned helplessness in same, by thoroughly accepting the occasional citizen killed by potshot or lobbed missile as somehow a good thing.

All the while the team doing the lobbing grows exponentially in strength.

Look, the Palestinians have a reasonable cause, even if they do not always follow a reasonable path to get there. Hezbollah, however, does not. I would like to see them all dead, in big dic fashion, instead of just the 25% who were offed in the last month. But I realize this may not be able to be accomplished and may have an unreasonable level of "blowback" amongst people who actually like the highly violent, islamofascist, thugs who assassinate anyone who disagrees with them. (Not only opposition leaders, but TV commentators who disagree with them.)

And so the current action may not actually be a good idea, but I don't know, which is why I must be content to let history be the judge.

[Undertoad]

Breast implants save Israeli woman's life in rocket attack

At last a lighter side. via Fark of course.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Breast implants save Israeli woman's life in rocket attack

At last a lighter side. via Fark of course.

Now all she has to worry about is the toxicity of the silicone. Presumably they removed the damaged implant and as much of the silicone as possible.

I'm so glad I opted *not* to get implants. I'll wear external body armor when necessary, thanks.

[Hippikos]

that if Israel allowed the attacks to go on and did nothing about it, they would eventually be seen as the highly moral actor.

To remind you, below the timeline of the beginning of this conflicts. Now who attacked? Do you consider the kidnapping an attack? Kidnappings happened all the time. BTW Chief of Staff Dan Halutz sold his stocks hours before the start of the Israeli attacks, he knew that something big was coming long time before...

July 12
Hezbollah fighters seize two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Three Israeli soldiers are also killed in the attack.

It says it will release them if Israel frees Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance ... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine," a Hezbollah statement said.

Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, said the attack was an "act of war" by Lebanon and said he would make the country pay a "heavy price".

July 13
Israeli jets bomb the runway of Lebanon's only international airport, the Rafiq Hariri Airport in Beirut, at dawn. The airport is closed and flights are diverted.

Israel announces an air and sea blockade of Lebanon, and says that Hezbollah will not be allowed to return to its former position along the border.

July 14
Israel bombs targets across Lebanon including bridges, roads and power stations. Israeli aircraft also hits Hezbollah's headquarters in Beirut.

Israel also attacks broadcasting facilities belonging to Hezbollah's Al-Manar television channel.

Hezbollah fires an Iranian-made anti-shipping rocket at an Israeli naval vessel off Beirut. The attack kills four Israeli sailors. Israeli accuses the Lebanese army of assisting Hezbollah.

July 15
Israeli aircraft destroy Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut in an attempt to kill Hasan Nasrallah, the group's leader.

Israel bombs Lebanon's ports and other sites across Lebanon. The attacks kill at least 35 people.

Eighteen Lebanese civilians die when an Israeli rockets hit their van near the southern city of Saida.

Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, promises "open war" against Israel.

Hezbollah rockets hit Tiberias, an Israeli city in Galilee. The attacks are the deepest so far.

[Kitsune]

Walking past one of the many televisions now perpetually tuned to CNN in my office (complete with never-ending 'breaking news' ticker) I noticed that they were discussing "who won the war?" in post football game-style analysis.

I repeat: I hate the news.

[Undertoad]

The correct timeline goes back six years, to 2000, and includes about 25 Hez potshots, kidnappings, and missile firings. I posted it earlier.

Yes, everyone knew this was coming. I posted a Michael Totten entry where he visited the borders in April and it was obvious. And when you put 13,000 missiles into an area, you are sort of telegraphing your moves.

It is more true colors that these things were happening all the time and the world shrugged. This is why the "patient moral actor" theory doesn't apply. The world has constructed a different set of rules for Israel, rules which if applied to your own country, would be obvious nonsense. If an armed, UN-outlawed, illegal militia in Mexico started lobbing missiles at LA from Tijuana, we wouldn't be asking about proportionate reponse. We'd be asking what to rename Tijuana since we took it over yesterday, with extreme violence and tank shelling of innocents. And if A.N.S.W.E.R. showed up in LA to demand a peace really, they'd be met by guys with tire irons to explain reality to them.

If Dover were being bombed by an illegal UN-outlawed armed militia in Calais, we would be loading up the troop transports and nobody would be wailing about French babies occasionally taking one up the gut.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Yes, everyone knew this was coming. I posted a Michael Totten entry where he visited the borders in April and it was obvious. And when you put 13,000 missiles into an area, you are sort of telegraphing your moves.

Yes, everyone knew this was coming. When he visited the mid-west in April, it was obvious. And when you put 1054 nuclear tipped missiles into silos, you are sort of telegraphing your moves.

Clearly that shows why the United States started WWIII.

UT, concede. Israel started this. Israel even overtly attacked and killed innocent Lebanese all over the country in some myth about only attacking Hezbollah. When you concede to the reality, then we can move on to more interesting and realistic curiosities about this Israeli started war. Questions such as who won - being asked without first defining fundamental concepts - asked from so many different perspectives.

Then we can ask how good or bad is Olmert's leadership. What happened to make those kidnapped Israelis irrelevant. Then we can ask why this ceasefire is flawed or why it miraculously accomplishes something.

You are now grasping at six years ago when Hezbollah was doing what is precisely Hezbollah's only reason to exist: to defend Lebanon from Israel. Your pro-Israeli bias is badly exposed.

[9th Engineer]

Using the term 'reality' in your posts to describe your opinion doesn't make it true tw. Cut the bombastic language from your pleas for people to take you seriously (not happening) and just debate like everyone else here, don't just repeatedly tell people they are denying reality.

[tw]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Using the term 'reality' in your posts to describe your opinion doesn't make it true tw.

9th Engineer. You proved to all that you don't yet have a grasp. You did not even know the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah. You could acknowledge your limited grasp of the world, or respond more like UG - like a child. I am losing respect for your opinions because 1) you don't yet grasp the lessons of history, and 2) you are now responding more like a hurt child rather than like an adult that would keep learning.

It is a reality, 9th Engineer. In this war, Israel started it. Israel also (for reasons that still befuddle) attacked innocent Lebanese all over Lebanon. Those are facts. They are provided with supporting evidence. If you have a problem with 'reality', you can post other evidence (as an adult) or you can nag like an old hag. Your last post does not even state an opinion or provide a useful fact. It is only a personal attack.

Currently, you did not even know most basic knowledge: the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah. That void should have been informative. Instead you nag like a hag - starting to sound more like Urbane Guerrilla. Admit the reality. You do not have a grasp of the situation because you did not even know basic facts. Instead you took personal insult for what is a fact - you did not even know the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Undertoad]

Quiz questions for tw

1. According to the UN, who was supposed to disarm Hezbollah?

2. Who said about Jews, "If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide?"

3. When you watch this February 2006 video of Nasrallah calling the crowd to chant Death to America, do you A) secretly get a hard-on, or B) secretly wish that neighborhood was the first in Beirut to be hit?

4. As you watch that video, aren't you embarrassed that you claimed that Beirut is, and I quote, "devoid of Hezbollah"?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

1. According to the UN, who was supposed to disarm Hezbollah?

In reality - no one. That is remains the problem with 1559. It really makes no one responsible for disarming because it even demands what could not be accomplished:
UN Resolution 1559

Your other questions are from those who need to see 'good and evil' everywhere. Those citations are no different than what Rush Limbaugh does for the White House. Rhetoric for those without enough grasp to even sit through a Kristol/Holbrook/Rose interview. Classic of what the AIPAC promotes to successfully promote hype.

Do you also take Geobel's type propaganda as if it represents the actual thinking of Hitler? But that is what you do. You look for fake pictures to justify your extreme pro-Israel bias rather than step back and ask what the hell is going on. Had you first stepped back, then embarrassing questions would have been asked - such as why is Israel attacking innocent people even in Akkar and the Beirut Airport - the crown jewel of all Lebanese people?

Unlike you, UT, I see nothing of factual value in those videos. I don't see anything but propaganda for the cannon fodder. Rush Limbaugh hype for the masses. Little different from Goebel's propaganda. And just like Krushchev banging his show on the podium in the UN, I did not for one minute see a madman. You would. The difference: I want facts; not rhetoric for the cannon fodder (people too short sighted to see through to reality). You see Krushchev banging his shoe on the UN podium as proof final that Krushchev is a madman. You do not see through the rhetoric.

I know, UT, that you are very capable of seeing through that rhetoric. But for reasons that again befuddle me, you don't. You refuse. I just don't know why you refuse to look beyond the fog to find a structure.

What causes us to have sharp disagreements? You will not even admit that Israel was targeting innocent Lebanese through out Lebanon. And even when Hippikos provides the time line, you still deny. We are right back to those aluminum tubes again where you just knew - all facts be damned. You knew only because you 'felt' you knew. Meanwhile, facts back then said those aluminum tubes were just not good for WMDs. You even grabbed on irrelevant facts (such as those tubes were anodized) as proof that you must be right. IOW you deny facts when it does not fit your agenda. That is lying.

And again, UT, Israel started this war. That is a fact. Israel even attacked Beirut airport where there was no Hezbollah and attacked it over 15 times. Another fact. You refuse to acknowledge that reality. That denial - just like those aluminum tubes - is why we have sharp disagreements.

If you have facts, then post those facts. Don't waste waste bandwidth with another Rush Limbaugh type tirade as if that proves anything. Those videos demonstrate to me that you cannot see through propaganda – therefore grasp reality. Those videos tell us nothing useful. Those videos only demonstrate how to hype the cannon fodder – as Limbaugh also does.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Quiz questions for tw

1. According to the UN, who was supposed to disarm Hezbollah?

tw answers "nobody" because UN1559 doesn't specify anyone. He is partly correct and gets half credit. In fact, a previous resolution 425 directs the creation of UNIFIL and makes part of its mandate to return control to the Government of Lebanon.

Originally Posted by UNSC 425

3. Decides, in the light of the request of the Government of Lebanon, to establish immediately under its authority a United Nations interim force for Southern Lebanon for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area, the Force to be composed of personnel drawn from Member States;

How'd that work out? Well, in 2000 the UN certified that Israel had in fact withdrawn. But UNIFIL didn't go away, as its mandate had not been fulfilled. Did they go on to fulfill the mandate? Let's see:



2006 image showing Hezbollah and UN flags flying side by side.

2. Who said about Jews, "If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide?"

Answer: Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah.

Tw answers: UT is being overly rhetorical, one-sided, and propagandist for pointing this out. Sorry, that answer is incorrect.

3. When you watch this February 2006 video of Nasrallah calling the crowd to chant Death to America, do you A) secretly get a hard-on, or B) secretly wish that neighborhood was the first in Beirut to be hit?

Tw answers: the video is propaganda for the cannon fodder. It's not clear whether he means Hezbollah, Israeli, or American cannon fodder. In any case, the answer is correct. My question was a silly setup to get people to watch the video.

4. As you watch that video, aren't you embarrassed that you claimed that Beirut is, and I quote, "devoid of Hezbollah"?

Tw's answer: UT is being overly rhetorical, one-sided, and propagandist for pointing this out. Sorry, that answer is incorrect. The correct answer is "Yes, I didn't understand the situation, and given your video, this is as devastating a lack of understanding as failing to interpret those aluminum tubes correctly."

5. Since the beginning of hostilities in Lebanon, there is one other country that experienced more deaths, yet did not receive any sort of UN cease-fire demand, media attention, or spin of any kind. Name it

Tw's answer: UT is being overly rhetorical, one-sided, and propagandist for pointing this out. Sorry, that answer is incorrect. However, this is a trick question. There are not one but two locations seeing more violence and deaths this month, than Lebanon. Those two locations: Iraq and Darfur.

Tw's final score is 1.5 out of 5 and therefore he is not knowledgeable enough to continue to discuss the middle east.

I kid of course!