Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I'm pro-Israel, pro-Lebanon, very anti-Hezbollah.

Then why were you so quite when Israel was murdering Maronites and Druze by the hundreds? Why were you so quite when Israel was routinely attacking other Lebanese (rather than Hezbollah) in Tyre, Sidon, Beirut, and Tripoli. You are not pro-Lebanese - except when it is consistent with a pro-Israeli attitude. I posted repeatedly about Israel attacks on Tripoli. UT remained silent because UT approves of anything that Israel does. An honest pro-Lebanese person would be screaming from the rafters about the murder of Lebanese in Tripoli - the most northern port in Lebanon. UT remained silent.

[Undertoad]

You believe Hezbollah is not in Beirut?

I asked that yesterday. Got no answer. TW remained silent. There are only two possibilities. One possibility: TW does not know Hezbollah controls large areas of Beirut. Which would be unthinkable to someone who claims to know so much about the region.

No, TW remained silent because he knows damn well there are Hezbollah in Beirut, and in Tripoli and Tyre and Sidon as well. TW wanted those attacks to be attacks on innocent Lebanese, and so he made them such. Because he disapproves of anything that Israel does and wants to paint the worst possible picture.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You believe Hezbollah is not in Beirut?

I answered your question long ago, UT. There were no Hezbollah terrorist operations in Beirut's airport. So why was that one of the first targets of Israel? Where are all this Hezbollah in Tyre or Sidon? Does not exist. Where is all this Hezbollah in Tripoli, Hermet, Galieh, Baalbek, or Halba? None. These are also northern cities attacked by Israel only because Hezbollah was in the south.

Why do you ignore these murders of Lebanese by israel when you claim to be pro-Lebanon?

No, the Hezbollah militia is in the south. Since Israel could not get them, then Israel instead murdered innocent Lebanese - and UT (Brianna and MaggieL) says this is good.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You believe Hezbollah is not in Beirut?

I asked that yesterday. Got no answer. TW remained silent. There are only two possibilities. One possibility: TW does not know Hezbollah controls large areas of Beirut. Which would be unthinkable to someone who claims to know so much about the region.

No, TW remained silent because he knows damn well there are Hezbollah in Beirut, and in Tripoli and Tyre and Sidon as well. TW wanted those attacks to be attacks on innocent Lebanese, and so he made them such. Because he disapproves of anything that Israel does and wants to paint the worst possible picture.

Of course there were Hezbollah in Beirut. The question is whether leveling the city to get to them is reasonable. It's not like the Lebanese can turn them in to the police. If someone carpet bombed my neighborhood to flush out the Republicans, I'd be pretty pissed.

Bush has already stated that Israel defeated Hezbollah. This of course is wonderful news to anyone who doesn't know any better. I'm really hoping he will declare a coalition victory in Iraq tomorrow so we can bring everyone home.

On Bush's first day back from vacation, his motorcade traveled between the White House and State and Defense departments for meetings on transforming the U.S. military, on homeland security and on the warfare in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sectarian violence has surged in Iraq and created what some consider the greatest threat to stability there since Saddam Hussein's government was toppled three years ago. Meanwhile, efforts to get North Korea and Iran to restrict their nuclear ambitions remained stalled.

I'm so very glad he's back from vacation. Maybe Condi left a few 'while you were out' post-its on his desk.

BTW, Israel does have a right to exist and does have the right to defend itself. But instead of trying to hit the rocket sites they started an invasion which ended in a cease fire. A cease fire with an opposition force that they would have not had to acknowledge if they had simply reacted to the immediate threat.

[Undertoad]

The first thing one does in war, especially a war with Arabs, is to cut the command and control lines, so that the people in the field can't get good orders from their leaders. Thus, the airports and communications facilities.

The second thing one does is to cut supply lines so that the people in the field can't be resupplied. Thus, the bridges and roads to Syria.



From Wikipedia. Areas you have specified as not containing Hezbollah are actually pwned and operated by them.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The first thing one does in war, especially a war with Arabs, is to cut the command and control lines, so that the people in the field can't get good orders from their leaders. Thus, the airports and communications facilities.

And then we look at UT's map. The attacked targets are not even Hezbollah command and control areas. Again, he completely ignored Tripoli that is about as far from Hezbollah as one can get in Lebanon. The Economist lists Tripoli as attacked somewhere between 16 and 30 times.

Again, and that was so obvious. The Beirut airport had nothing to do with Hezbollah. But it was the crown jewel of the Lebanese people - having been built as a trophy to the end of their civil war.

Why would Israel attack Beirut Airport? Apparently Olmert's government actually thought if they attacked Beirut, then the Lebanon army would somehow disarm the only miltia with a history of expelling Israel from Lebanon.

Don't forget why Israel left Lebanon: Hezbollah. Israel is the reason Hezbollah was created. Hezbollah is in south Lebanon because that is where Lebanon's enemy is.

So instead Israel attacks cities where Hezbollah is not: Sidon, Tyre, Beirut, Tripoli, Halba, Hermel, and so many cities far north of Beirut and without any Hezbollah. Again, UT calls this justified - and yet claims to be a friend of Lebanon?

[9th Engineer]

Look at the targets they are hitting. Any large airport in Lebanon is a stratigic target, as well as seaports and industrial cities. With these targets there doesn't have to be Hezbollah in the building, if it weakens them by denying them weapons, food, or orders it's a legitimate target.
The only way I can see this ending for any length of time is the complete disarmament of Hezbolla and the reinstation of Lebanons official army.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Look at the targets they are hitting. Any large airport in Lebanon is a stratigic target, as well as seaports and industrial cities.

These are strategic Lebanese targets. By attacking them, supplies to the entire population are cut off. This is known as collective punishment. We tried it in Iraq in order to get the Iraqis to overthrow Saddam. It didn't work.

[tw]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Look at the targets they are hitting. Any large airport in Lebanon is a stratigic target, as well as seaports and industrial cities. With these targets there doesn't have to be Hezbollah in the building, if it weakens them by denying them weapons, food, or orders it's a legitimate target.

Now you have justified the illegal invasion of Cambodia, Laos, the Gulf of Tonkin, etc. For that matter why not attack Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia since that also are sources of Hezbollah support.

Meanwhile, TW instead wants honesty and facts. So much so that if anything posted emotionally bothers anyone (Brianna), well grow up. Since so many are openly lying - more egregiously then when hyping lies about WMDs - instead we have facts with supporting documentation:

Let's look at the map that UT posted. Listed is a province not in Hezbollah control (according to UT) and at least one city in that province attacked by Israel - as best I can tell using maps, news reports, etc. In most every case, the number of attacks are far more numerous; especially in provinces listed with two or more towns:
Akkar: El Aabboudieh, Aandaqt, Halba

The Hindu
Jets struck before dawn a bridge near the northern town of Halba in the remote Akkar region

Tripoli: Tripoli, El Beddaoui

Israeli Bridge Attack Kills Eleven In Lebanon
A third attack fell on a village some 12.43 miles northeast of the northern city of Tripoli, reports The Australian.

Bartroun: Al Batrun, Selaata
Aley: Ain Zhalta, Damour
Chouf: Chehim, Jiyeh

Israel's Outrageous Attacks
Israel has killed Christians, Sunnis and Shiites, old and young, men and women, from the great Phoenician cities of Sidon and Tyre to more humble towns — Chtoura and Juniyah, Damour and Naame, Jiye and Baalbek, Khiam and Batrun.
It has wrecked roads, bridges, a lighthouse, ports, tunnels, electrical pylons, water mains, fuel depots, gas stations, power plants, houses, shops, schools — and even a milk factory. It has repeatedly blasted the international airport that was the symbol of Lebanon's rebirth from 15 years of war.

Kaerouan: Jounieh, Aayoun elSimane

Lebanon's Day 6: Lebanon Death Toll Rises!
Three missiles hit an LBCI transmission station at Fatqa in Kesrouan, killing the chief employee there.

Minleh-Dinnieh: Marjahin
Koura or Bacharre : Ehden
El Metri: Sannine
Baabda: El Mdairej

According to UT logic (that has no Israeli bias?), these are Hezbollah cities only because they are Lebanese cities? They are outside of what UT says is Hezbollah areas. Therefore the poplulation must be killed by Israeli warplanes.

By my count, Akkar province alone had eight attacked cities. Who did the Akkar people elect in their 2005 elections? 3 Sunnis, 1 Alawite, 1 Maronite, and 2 Greek Orthodox. So why is Israel bombing eight Akkar cities? UT tells us this is a Hezbollah stronghold? Or maybe UT never learned how often Israel lies? Clearly fake photographs demonstrate that only Arabs lie.

One can again believe a lying American president because one feels the truth. Same president that also lied about weapons of mass destruction even after he knew those weapons did not exist. Or one can again first learn facts. There was no Hezbollah in Beirut Airport no matter what UT claims. Even UT's own maps show no Hezbollah in cities that Israeli warplanes attacked. Provided are news reports of some Israeli attacked Lebanese towns in areas even UT says are not Hezbollah strongholds. But this cannot be. Israelis don't lie - if you believe George Jr and Israeli propaganda.

[Undertoad]

Again, and that was so obvious. The Beirut airport had nothing to do with Hezbollah. But it was the crown jewel of the Lebanese people - having been built as a trophy to the end of their civil war.

If it was tactical, they cratered the runways and took out some of the infrastructure needed to get people in and out, such as roads leading to the airport.

If it was punative, they reduced the entire thing to rubble.

Ya follow?

Beirut airport can be 'reopened partly' in a week: ministers

Public Works and Transport Minister Mohammed Safadi, for his part, said the airport needed two and a half months to be fully operational but it could open 'partially within a week.'

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If it was tactical, they cratered the runways and took out some of the infrastructure needed to get people in and out, such as roads leading to the airport.

There was no tactical value to cratering the Beirut airport. Israel expected to drive out Hezbollah in two weeks. Massive military equipment from that airport and carried south was not going to resupply Hezbollah. Airport was attacked probably for same reasons that even cities northern Lebanon were attacked. For some strange reason, Israel was bombing innocent Lebanese while publicly demanding that Lebanon's army displace Hezbollah. Somehow Israel thought this would make the Lebanon army move on Hezbollah? Yes, if Lebanon blamed Hezbollah for the war. Apparently Israel actually thought that Lebanese people would blame Hezbollah.

Sounds like a decision in Israel made by a compromising committee. Well it did get Fouad Siniora's and the world's attention in a war that otherwise might have otherwise received less attention. But attacking the airport had little if any tactical purpose other than stop all commercial flights and getting attention of all in Lebanon - the airport being a crown jewel and so critical to almost all Lebanon's economy. Israel was attacking innocent Lebanese; done for a purpose. It also caused so many centrists throughout the world to start discussing "Guns of August".

[Undertoad]

The airport is open.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The airport is open.

And that says Israel did not attack it 15 times?

[Ibby]

No, it means they didnt carpet bomb it out of existance, and allowed them to open it back up.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

No, it means they didnt carpet bomb it out of existance, and allowed them to open it back up.

Name one plane or one weapon in Israel that can do carpet bombing? In short, none exist. Israel attacked Lebanon's airport (not Hezbollah's airport) at least 15 times with fighter bombers. Therefore it took a few days to clear the rubble, probably get some new fuel sources (because Israel attacked Lebanon's jet fuel facilities - Hezbollah has no jet planes but Lebanon does), and get an 'airport that does not threaten Israel' reopened.