Middle East erupts

[DanaC]

There are many problems with dictators, benevolent or otherwise. But it's important to keep reminding ourselves that just because a country is (or claims to be) a 'free' nation or democracy, does not automatically make it right in all things. The assumption that a country is right in all things is one step along a very dangerous path.

Personally, I would rather live in a Western Democracy than in any other system. But then again, I was born and have always lived in such a system. I like my culture. I like many of the assumptions that are made within liberal democracies. I am a feminist and find many other cultures difficult to understand when it comes to the role of women within them.

This does not mean that I am 'right' and they are 'wrong'. This is my culture. That is their culture. I do not fully understand their culture, so I am not in a position to judge it fully. It may be that we are 'ahead' of them. Or, it may be that we are all on entirely different trajectories and heading to very different places. Who are we to say that our trajectory is right? It is right for us....I might even think that it is probably right for them. But that's a thought in the head of a Western woman in a Western Liberal democracy. I am a product of my environment as is my thinking.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by DanaC

This does not mean that I am 'right' and they are 'wrong'. This is my culture. That is their culture. I do not fully understand their culture, so I am not in a position to judge it fully.

How admirably relativist. No, really...

[Griff]

WARNING : Free Association Ramble to Follow

Tangentally, there were concerns with unleashing the passions of the mob when our own government was formed. Unfortunately W doesn't have the education to apply that concern to his Arab democracy project. How powerful does the US Presidency have to become beore corruption is inevitable? All governmental systems are horribly flawed, so we hope for other checks whether cultural, religious, or systematic. I'm hoping W's recent judicial setback isn't overthrown and I'd like to see Congess grow up. Unfortunately, even our chosen masters are cowed.

[DanaC]

How admirably relativist. No, really...

Alright. explain to me why what I said was incorrect.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Alright. explain to me why what I said was incorrect.

It was incorrect because Maggie doesn't agree with you.

[Griff]

I knew I was making a mess but I wrote it anyway.

[9th Engineer]

Just keep in mind that once they come into OUR culture they have to abide by our rules.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Alright. explain to me why what I said was incorrect.

I didn't say it was "incorrect". But I am rather reminded of Wolfgang Pauli, who once said "That theory is so worthless, it isn't even wrong."

Are you then so paralyzed by guilt over your ignorance of a culture that you can't evaluate it at all? Are you allowed to have an opinion about, say, female genital mutiliation? Remeber, it occurs in a culture you don't understand fully, so I guess the jury's still out on that one. Or do you judge it partially, rather than fully? If so..what does that mean?

And what cultures *do* you understand fully? Are you sure? I mean, there's something you might have missed. :-)

The whole spiel just seemed to be soaked in such a no-fault relativism that it could find an excuse for anything it wanted to.

I'd like to recommend Richard Mitchell's writings to you.

[DanaC]

Just keep in mind that once they come into OUR culture they have to abide by our rules.

Agreed. But the main thrust of this thread has turned into the merits of transplanting (by force if necessary) western democratic cultures into other nation states.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Agreed. But the main thrust of this thread has turned into the merits of transplanting (by force if necessary) western democratic cultures into other nation states.

I thought the last time this went around, the Sin of the West was tolerating dictators?

[DanaC]

I thought the last time this went around, the Sin of the West was tolerating dictators?

To which dictator are you referring?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by DanaC

To which dictator are you referring?

All of them...quite a list, really. The Shah of Iran comes to mind first. Then there's Saddam. A whole raft of them who were thought "better than Communisim" at the time, including a fair number in South America. How about the Saudi royals? We kept hearing that a "root cause" of islamofascistic terrorism is the Western-supported "oppressive regimes" so many live under.

[JayMcGee]

perm any one of ten backed by the CIA /NSA over past 3 decades...

[Aliantha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliantha
Even being a communist doesn't make you wrong...

MaggieL said:
Depends on what the topic under discussion is.

And the problem with "benevolent dictators" is so few of them can stay benevolent for long enough. That kind of power distorts the mind utterly.

I'd say you inferred it. Prior to your post, no one had mentioned benevolent dictators.

As to your second response, I don't think it's debatable at all. If you're not working for the good of the whole society you're not a communist, and that's the end of it. Certainly, many 'communist' societies and their structure can be argued as to whether they are in fact true communist societies, but definitely not the basic tenet of communism.

[9th Engineer]

Remember that the good of society is different than the good of all individuals. Many communist idealists end up fighting the individuals they are trying to help in order to protect a construct. Society is not something that exists outside of people, it isn't something higher or greater than the sum worth of the people it consists of either. So to say that people are working for the good of society is impossible, you can only work for the good of people.