Saving the US Auto Industry

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Are you really so foolish to believe that more than a relative handful of consumers care about the financial strength or the management of the company that made the product they want?

MBA school propaganda again. Long before financials say anything, the product has long been crap. Only bean counters would confuse what was posted with business school myths about 'consumers caring about the financial strength'.

Read Consumer Reports to see what the financials would be reporting four and ten years later. Read what Mary Ann Keller was writing in the Wall Street Journal so accurately that GM banned her from interviewing any GM employees. Read what the LA Times made obvious years ago - so GM took revenge. Or read the so many reports from Michelle Maynard.

Or see obvious numbers such as 70 horsepower per liter - a problem defined by GMs power train executive Heimbuch in 1990. "the payoff is being able to make the engine, transmission, and structure smaller to improve the car's efficiency". Instead, GM put even bigger engines with same low performance, pollution, and low gas mileage in even larger vehicles so that the same obsolete technology continued to be sold. Then bought Congressman to stop government from requiring innovation. This has been especially obvious the last eight years when everyone knows a president routinely stifled innovation.

While GM was still making 48 and 52 Hp/liter engines, Honda was testing the 100 hp/liter engine. We documented here some four(?) years ago that GMs were still doing only 52 Hp/liter.

Anyone could see how crappy GM product were ten and twenty years ago. You would foolishly discuss financials? Only a fool would promote such myths as if "Buy American" was good.

When the financials finally reflected reality, that company should have been confronting bankruptcy. How curious. GM was only four hours away from bankruptcy in 1991. Their products were that bad that long ago. Did GM make anything better since then? Obviously not. So GM then shorted the pension funds. And some Americans said that also was good - and bought more crap. "Good", they said. "Screw the workers."

Are you so foolish as to believe a product today is measured by the financials today? Only corrupt bean-counter types make that conclusion. GM's financials today are about how bad their products were four and ten years ago when so many Americans were saying “keep making crap”. Today’s GM (and Chrysler) products are even worse.

They encouraged GM management to play more money games so that every month, more GM employees must lose their jobs four and ten years later. Large parts of America so hated America as to still buy Chevys - with 1968 technology engines – and call themselves patriots. And then be so much more hateful as to blame the unions.

It really is simple. Forget the financials that report problems four and ten years later. Why would anyone buy an inferior product? The financial don't yet report how bad that product currently is. The real patriot instead believes in the free market - buy the best. Responsible analysis, news, and technical numbers have long demonstrated why a fool or one who hated America would buy a GM product. Financials only confirm what was obvious years ago.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You're letting the bullshit seep in again, tw. And you were doing so well. sigh

[Undertoad]

Before you sign on that be sure to check Bentley's financials. They might be anti-American! Or... anti-Brit, or anti-Europe, or whatever!

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Before you sign on that be sure to check Bentley's financials.

What does Bentley have to do with buying GM products to destroy American jobs?

I don't want to kill anyone. So after running 300 stop signs, I killed someone. But I did not want to? Is that your reasoning?

You buy a GM product to destroy America. You buy better products - the free market - to advance America and mankind.

In 1979, enough Americans got so patriotic as to stop buying Chrysler products. That saved Chrysler. In 1981, enough were patriotic as to stop buying Ford products. That saved Ford Motor. For more of the past 30 years, no innovation appeared in any GM product unless required by government regulation. Some so want that to continue as to let GM propaganda pervert that reality.

It was called the "Heart Attack of America" for good and indisputable reasons - some posted earlier (ie blame unions for two extra pistons in every vehicle). Real shame is why so many Americans must now lose their jobs. A problem that could have been averted decades ago if so many Americans had stopped buying obviously inferior products.

The worst of these Americans still foolishly promote "Buy American". A perfect example of propaganda that encourages the destruction of more Americans jobs.

You can say they don't want to destroy American jobs - just like I can say I do not want to kill anyone.

One bought GM products to destroy American jobs.

[tw]

We vote for who runs the economy in what we buy. Rick Wagoner - who never once ran a successful operation but was made GM's CEO anyway - remained there because so many Americans voted for him to stay. They bought GM crap saying, "Keep making this crap." Finally Obama had to do what neither the customers, stockholders, or BoDs would. But somehow that reality is bullshit?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Then why didn't you buy the best car made?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Then why didn't you buy the best car made?

There is no "best car made". But there are cars made by people who innovate - also called patriotic Americans. Opposed to products designed by bean counters that routinely stifle innovation. Buy a GM car to stifle innovation - then blame everyone else. Say, "GM has stifled innovation for 30 years, makes crappy cars, and I love to contribute to the destruction of American jobs. I will buy more crap from people who even lie about their gasoline mileage." Drive one to realize how bad GM management has been - even so evil as to blame the unions.

GM management would not innovate until required by Federal regulations. There are good products. Then there are GM products that obviously destroy American jobs. Can only be sold using the "Buy American" myth. A myth that can only exist when one does not believe in the free market. One need only drive GM cars or view Consumer Reports to realize why a GM product means the destruction of American jobs and subverts principles that make free markets so productive.

So many have so hated America (bought a GM product four and ten years ago) that jobs must now be lost AND parts of America must be sold to foreigner to pay for the resulting debts.

There are plenty of good cars. Why did anyone then buy a GM product? Like it or not, realize it or not; job losses today are due to those who so hated Americans as to buy GM products.

How to put Americans back to work. Buy Honda or Toyota. Then American part suppliers can learn to and make more and better parts - become profitable again. Just another example of why free markets work; why "Buy American" does not.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Oh, so Nissan, the Koreans and Europeans are out.

The problem of GM's mismanagement has been well documented, especially of late. But what you're telling me is to buy a car that will be patriotic, that you approve of, rather than one that suits my wants and needs, like most people do.
Don't think that's going to set well with most people. Neither is calling them wackos, wingnuts or unpatriotic for doing so. Nope, you lose.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

But what you're telling me is to buy a car that will be patriotic, that you approve of, rather than one that suits my wants and needs, like most people do.

I'm not telling you to do anything. But if you were patriotic, then you knew any 1990 or 2000 GM car was clearly destroying American jobs just by how it drives, its grossly oversized and noisy engine, excessive price and repair costs, its low gas mileage, its management repeatedly running to government to stop any requirements for innovation, ....

It's not proven as of late that GM management was bad. Anyone with respect for America knew that decades ago. It was that obvious that long ago. But then all one need do is drive a Pontiac or see so many neighbors with problems to know that buying a GM car even in the 1990s would only destroy American jobs. Again, simple principles of free market economics.

I am not telling you to do anything. Basic knowledge said you were only undermining America by purchasing the obviously inferior products. Good Americans believe in the free market. Ignorant Americans are told what to do by their 'communist' handlers: "Buy American" only because we say so. Subvert innovation and destroy American jobs. It was your choice - not mine.

Meanwhile, you invented this Nissan, Europeans, and Koreans are out. I did not say that. You did. But again. Your choice. Do you believe in the free market or do what communists and bad management want you to do - "Blindly buy American" only because they tell you to.

The patriot always bought the best. Therefore voted to advance America. Those are people who make American great.

[classicman]

Good for you Bruce - As one of the MILLIONS of satisfied & loyal customers of American car manufacturers, I am sure that every hard working individuals who was involved in the process thanks you.

[sugarpop]

I wouldn't buy an American POS car if they paid me to. Unless it was a Tesla, but I don't believe they make them in America. At least when you buy Toyotas they are being made here, by American workers.

[tw]

Excerpts from the NY Times of 27 Apr 2009:

G.M.’s Latest Plan Envisions a Much Smaller Automaker
G.M. said it would have to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection unless 90 percent of the vast bondholder group accepted the terms by June 1. ...

If bondholders approve the debt-for-equity exchange, they would own about 10 percent of G.M., making them a minority shareholder in a company controlled by the Treasury and the U.A.W.’s retiree trust. ...

Representative Thaddeus McCotter ... is urging the Treasury secretary, Timothy F. Geithner, to disclose which G.M. bondholders have default swaps from the American International Group, the insurance company that was bailed out by the government.

As if these stories don't get complex enough. A new twist. Rather than agree to a swap of bonds for common stock, many bondholders with Credit Default Swaps from AIG can do better if GM goes bankrupt.

[classicman]

Packaging factories or plants along with certain auto lines is another viable option that has been explored.

Pontiac should have never been "saved" it should have been taken out back and shot back in the 80's. GM has been producing multiples of the same car with a different name on it for years, decades. So has Ford and Chrysler. Why is there a Mercury brand? Same answer - they should have stopped producing these same cars with different names decades ago. It was a failed business plan. People just aren't as stupid as that anymore and the availability of and better designed/longer lasting foreign cars compounded the problem. Playing off the American spirit only lasted so long and that time has come and gone.

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

Pontiac should have never been "saved" it should have been taken out back and shot back in the 80's. GM has been producing multiples of the same car with a different name on it for years, decades. So has Ford and Chrysler. Why is there a Mercury brand? Same answer - they should have stopped producing these same cars with different names decades ago. It was a failed business plan.

The business plan works for VW. Passat, Jetta, Bug, TT, and other VWs are the same platform.

Problem was that GM's solutions did not come from car guys. That is when all GM designs were removed from the Divisions (where division presidents protected their innovators from corporate accountants) and moved into three GM super engineering groups. BOC (Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac) and CPC (Chevy Pontiac, GMC), and GM Coach and Bus.

Once the finance sheets report bad products, well, a company must go into emergency rescue as Chrysler did in 1979 (Iacocca and the K car) and Ford did in 1981 (Peterson and the Taurus).

GM did not do that when four hours from bankruptcy in 1991. Instead they shorted the pension funds and did other bean counter miracles.

Clinton realized this problem. So they offered Detroit a whole new paradigm. Government would pay for a new revolutionary design. So the government gave the auto companies hundreds of $millions to design Hybrids - Prodigy, Precept and ESX3.

And then a new administration stopped any requirements that the automakers innovation. With George Jr's arrival, all new propulsion designs and development were terminated. Even the 70 horsepower per liter engine remains quashed because no government regulation required it.

Pontiac, et al could have been saved. But that meant product people had to take charge. Instead, government in 2000 even encourages more bean counter games. That is when the demise of GM and Chrysler were inevitable.

Curiously, Ford had William Clay Ford - a car guy. Ford is viable because William Clay and Jaques Nasser are rumored to have had even two fist fights. Nasser was a bean counter all his life - starting in Australia. When William Clay replaced him in 2001, Ford started a desperate effort to save itself. As a result, Ford is viable. In serious trouble. But Ford can survive because they corrected the problem only at the very last minute - in 2001.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

The business plan works for VW. Passat, Jetta, Bug, TT, and other VWs are the same platform. Blah blah blah

There need not be so many makes - not models all those you mentioned are VW vehicles. Chrysler & Dodge - same thing. Ford & Mercury - same thing.... Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Saturn... They all make the same shoddily built cars with different names.

Its all a smokescreen to capture market share when virtually none of them could stand on their own against the better engineered, better built & longer lasting competitors vehicles.