One more job for immigrants

[tw]

Originally Posted by Shocker

Well tw...looks like you figured me out. I'm really an unpatriotic operative of Rush Limbaugh, here to try and sway your minds into actually following the laws of your government and to build support into protecting our borders, our jobs, our history, our language, our culture, and, um... well what else am I forgetting that I'm sure you think I'm trying to do?

No the truth is, you don't even know me or my motivations, and for you to just assume that I don't care about my country or am not patriotic is just ludicrous.

Only you have suggested something about you don't care for your country. I never even implied it. But if you did not read every sentence as if they were poison snakes, then you did not understand what I posted - and therefore had an emotional response. Read the defintion of 'American patriot'. Don't assume things not posted.

I asked for supporting facts bluntly. I even defined 'American patriot' which somehow you confused with some irrevelant interpretation about 'love of country' (There is no relationship between American patriot and 'love of country'). Read the previous post to learn how 'American patriot' was defined.

Meanwhile, show me one reason why Al Qaeda is a threat to you and your family - this time with facts that Rush Limbaugh is not incapable of [is there any relationship between you and Rush Limbaugh in that last sentence? If so, then that relationship is only from your own personal biases. If I thought you were as much as liar as Rush Limbaugh, then I would say so bluntly. Read only what is posted - nothing more.] .

Show me why illegal immigration is a threat to anyone. Illegal immigration channels are a very bad way for terrorist to enter the US; once we eliminate myths preached by Rush Limbaugh. Pure logic. But you somehow think illegal immigration can be stopped with law enforcement - even though history repeatedly says otherwise. So show me. Show me why history is wrong. So me how blind enforcement of laws will solve problems created by bad laws. And show me where this has anything to do with Al Qaeda - without including myths from Rush Limbaugh.

Currently your claims of Al Qaeda threats are supported only by myths. Myths often promoted by a liar Rush Limbaugh. Show me - with facts and numbers - why illegal immigration provides Al Qaeda with anything useful. You made that claim and did not provide supporting facts. Show us. Show us why this Rush Limbaugh claim is based in anything other than Rush Limbaugh propaganda.

Obviously I don't care for Oprah Winfrey nonsense about "How did you feel". Posting such tells me one has an emotion. Waste of good bandwidth. I asked for facts. I ask bluntly. And I measure the responder by whether he can reply with facts and numbers - or take personal insult like Rush Limbaugh would. Show me facts why Al Qaeda and illegal immigration are a threat to your family. To not provide such supporting information is Rush Limbaugh logic. And again - not an insult - just a fact from reality. Your made the statement. Back it up with facts.

What I did observe is that you did not read my previous post with care, then made assumptions, and never answered a single question. Maybe this time you could answer the questions - show us why you know what you posted.

Meanwhile, I only again reply with what was posted previously - because it answered Bruce's (and your) question completely (and again, what in that post did you not understand?). Enforcing current immigration laws is not possible - just like Prohibition. Only those who see solutions in military type terms would believe otherwise. The laws are currently being enforced as well as they ever could be. The problem is not law enforcement. When laws don't work, then the laws and their purpose - are flawed. Show me where wall on borders solved problems. Even the Great Wall of China was a failure. As was the wall to protect S Vietnam from N Vietnam. Or the Berlin wall. In each case, the wall existed only because a problem was elsewhere: the 'powers that be' were in denial. We have massive illegal immigration because we have problems that we have created. So instead we will fix the problem with Berlin walls? Nonsense. Total nonsense. As so often proven by history - nonsense and classic of what happens when a political leadership is the real problem.

[OnyxCougar]

As a person whose father immigrated to this country in 1946, and achieved citizenship, and as a person who is the sponsor of a Croatian immigrant, I believe I can speak from experience in immigration matters, both past and present.

There are problems with immigration laws. No one denies that.
Filing immigration forms is expensive. $500 just to start the process.

But that doesn't make it OK for a person to break the laws in place in order to come to the US.

Oh, and those "low paying jobs that no one else will do" will become higher paying jobs when companies can't find illegals to do the work. It's the law of supply and demand, something your Economic soul can relate to, Tee.

One of the counter-arguements that the open-border and other pro-illegal types throw back at us is that the cost of food would sky-rocket if we restricted the numbers of illegals working in agriculture. The lines goes more or less, 'Do you want to pay $10 for a head of lettuce?'

Maybe we do.

This is a study on the costs to the Federal government of the illegals here. Among its findings:

"This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion."

Let's see. $10 Billion plus another $20 Billion or so of capital they export back to their homelands, now we're starting to talk real money.

The Mexican government slammed a newly approved immigrant enforcement law in the U.S. state of Georgia, saying the legislation discriminates against Mexicans while failing to resolve the migration issue.

Ruben Aguilar, the spokesman for President Vicente Fox, told a news conference Tuesday that Mexican consular officials will closely watch the application of the law, which gives Georgia some of the toughest measures against illegal immigrants in the United States.

"The referred legislation incurs discriminatory acts against the Mexican population and those of Mexican origin," Aguilar said. "It is a partial measure that fails to resolve the complex phenomenon of immigration between Mexico and the United States in an integral manner."

The law requires verification of the legal status of people seeking many state-administered benefits. It sanctions employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants and mandates that companies with state contracts check the immigration status of employees.

It also requires police to check the immigration status of people they arrest.

Georgia Gov. Sunny Perdue signed the bill Monday, after protests for and against it, and a daylong work stoppage by thousands of immigrants.

"I want to make this clear: we are not, Georgia's government is not, and this bill is not, anti-immigrant," Perdue said at the signing in Atlanta. "We simply believe that everyone who lives in our state needs to abide by our laws."

So El Presidente, who is RABID about other nations even COMMENTING on the way his country is being run, has a problem with how another soveriegn nation is dealing with criminals within it's borders? STFU.

Why don't ALL states adopt that simple law? No citizenship or working VISA = no benefits, no jobs. (actually, I thought that was already a law. whenever I started a new job I always had to fill out a form to prove I'm an American citizen or a person legally allowed to work in the US.)

If American Citizens want to revamp the current laws, that's great! There is a process in place to do that, built in, given to all American Citizens.

If you aren't an American Citizen, you have precisely shit all to say about the way Americans handle internal business.

(Just like Americans should have shit all to say about what happens within Iran's borders, or Iraq's borders. We're not citizens of Iran, or Iraq. It's not up to us to make changes in a soverign nation other than our own.)

Personally, I have to say for some laws I do break them if I feel/know that they are unconstitutional, harmful for the nation &/or corrupt. It is up to the individual.
However, I do so fully knowing that I can and many pay for said defiance, in fact doing so may help end said tyranny.

The Mexican government slammed a newly approved immigrant enforcement law in the U.S. state of Georgia, saying the legislation discriminates against Mexicans while failing to resolve the migration issue.

Ruben Aguilar, the spokesman for President Vicente Fox, told a news conference Tuesday that Mexican consular officials will closely watch the application of the law, which gives Georgia some of the toughest measures against illegal immigrants in the United States.

"The referred legislation incurs discriminatory acts against the Mexican population and those of Mexican origin," Aguilar said. "It is a partial measure that fails to resolve the complex phenomenon of immigration between Mexico and the United States in an integral manner."

The law requires verification of the legal status of people seeking many state-administered benefits. It sanctions employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants and mandates that companies with state contracts check the immigration status of employees.

It also requires police to check the immigration status of people they arrest.

Georgia Gov. Sunny Perdue signed the bill Monday, after protests for and against it, and a daylong work stoppage by thousands of immigrants.

"I want to make this clear: we are not, Georgia's government is not, and this bill is not, anti-immigrant," Perdue said at the signing in Atlanta. "We simply believe that everyone who lives in our state needs to abide by our laws."

If Mr. Fox is so pissed-off about how we treat illegals on our Southern border we should make a deal with him.
We will enforce our Southern border and treat the illegals there exactly like he does his.
He is an honorable man.

Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/...BhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer
Tue Apr 18, 6:08 PM ET

TULTITLAN, Mexico - Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money.

While migrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

And though Mexico demands humane treatment for its citizens who migrate to the U.S., regardless of their legal status, Mexico provides few protections for migrants on its own soil. The issue simply isn't on the country's political agenda, perhaps because migrants make up only 0.5 percent of the population, or about 500,000 people — compared with 12 percent in the United States.

The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant.

Virginia Sanchez, who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, said such shootings in Tultitlan are common.

"At night, you hear the gunshots, and it's the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants," she said. "It's not fair to kill these people. It's not fair in the United States and it's not fair here."

Undocumented Central American migrants complain much more about how they are treated by Mexican officials than about authorities on the U.S. side of the border, where migrants may resent being caught but often praise the professionalism of the agents scouring the desert for their trail.

"If you're carrying any money, they take it from you — federal, state, local police, all of them," said Carlos Lopez, a 28-year-old farmhand from Guatemala crouching in a field near the tracks in Tultitlan, waiting to climb onto a northbound freight train.

Lopez said he had been shaken down repeatedly in 15 days of traveling through Mexico.

"The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river," he said. "They said, 'You can't cross ... unless you leave something for us.'"

Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.

"If you're on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, 'Get out of here,'" Ramos said.

Maria Elena Gonzalez, who lives near the tracks, said female migrants often complain about abusive police.

"They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them," she said.

Others said they had seen migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from a train.

The Mexican government acknowledges that many federal, state and local officials are on the take from the people-smugglers who move hundreds of thousands of Central Americans north, and that migrants are particularly vulnerable to abuse by corrupt police.

The National Human Rights Commission, a government-funded agency, documented the abuses south of the U.S. border in a December report.

"One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues is the contradiction in demanding that the North respect migrants' rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South," commission president Jose Luis Soberanes said.

In the United States, mostly Mexican immigrants have staged rallies pressuring Congress to grant amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants rather than making them felons and deputizing police to deport them. The Mexican government has spoken out in support of the immigrants' cause.

While Interior Secretary Carlos Abascal said Monday that "Mexico is a country with a clear, defined and generous policy toward migrants," the nation of 105 million has legalized only 15,000 immigrants in the past five years, and many undocumented migrants who are detained are deported.

Although Mexico objects to U.S. authorities detaining Mexican immigrants, police and soldiers usually cause the most trouble for migrants in Mexico, even though they aren't technically authorized to enforce immigration laws.

And while Mexicans denounce the criminalization of their citizens living without papers in the United States, Mexican law classifies undocumented immigration as a felony punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.

The number of undocumented migrants detained in Mexico almost doubled from 138,061 in 2002 to 240,269 last year. Forty-two percent were Guatemalan, 33 percent Honduran and most of the rest Salvadoran.

Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. Last year, then-director of Mexico's immigration agency, Magdalena Carral, said an increasing number of Central Americans were staying in Mexico, rather than just passing through on their way to the U.S.

She said sectors of the Mexican economy facing labor shortages often use undocumented workers because the legal process for work visas is inefficient.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. Last year, then-director of Mexico's immigration agency, Magdalena Carral, said an increasing number of Central Americans were staying in Mexico, rather than just passing through on their way to the U.S.

She said sectors of the Mexican economy facing labor shortages often use undocumented workers because the legal process for work visas is inefficient.

I posted once before about a Smithsonian Magazine story of a Mexican that made millions in NY and went home (no, not to stay, he has a palatial estate in NJ) to build 5 factories, each employing 500 people. One factory got built and couldn't attract enough employees to operate it, so, of course, the rest were cancelled.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

As a person whose father immigrated to this country in 1946, and achieved citizenship, and as a person who is the sponsor of a Croatian immigrant, I believe I can speak from experience in immigration matters, both past and present.

There are problems with immigration laws. No one denies that.
Filing immigration forms is expensive. $500 just to start the process.

But that doesn't make it OK for a person to break the laws in place in order to come to the US.

Oh, and those "low paying jobs that no one else will do" will become higher paying jobs when companies can't find illegals to do the work. It's the law of supply and demand, something your Economic soul can relate to, Tee.

One of the counter-arguements that the open-border and other pro-illegal types throw back at us is that the cost of food would sky-rocket if we restricted the numbers of illegals working in agriculture. The lines goes more or less, 'Do you want to pay $10 for a head of lettuce?'

Maybe we do.

This is a study on the costs to the Federal government of the illegals here. Among its findings:

"This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion."

Let's see. $10 Billion plus another $20 Billion or so of capital they export back to their homelands, now we're starting to talk real money.



So El Presidente, who is RABID about other nations even COMMENTING on the way his country is being run, has a problem with how another soveriegn nation is dealing with criminals within it's borders? STFU.

Why don't ALL states adopt that simple law? No citizenship or working VISA = no benefits, no jobs. (actually, I thought that was already a law. whenever I started a new job I always had to fill out a form to prove I'm an American citizen or a person legally allowed to work in the US.)

If American Citizens want to revamp the current laws, that's great! There is a process in place to do that, built in, given to all American Citizens.

If you aren't an American Citizen, you have precisely shit all to say about the way Americans handle internal business.

(Just like Americans should have shit all to say about what happens within Iran's borders, or Iraq's borders. We're not citizens of Iran, or Iraq. It's not up to us to make changes in a soverign nation other than our own.)

I posted that exact fact in a much longer post on another thread. I grew-up in the citrus industry and my family is still in it... we will, in fact, just pay a decent wage for the labor without illegals and Americans will happily pick fruit with that decent wage. True Fact.

FYI. Some of my posts from another board... been thinking about this today and my experiences with this growing-up.

Suddenly I want to move to Sweden, not pay any taxes, make them take care of all my medical expenses, educate my kids, pay for my and their college also, house me and then I will bitch and moan about my Rights when they think it is unfair when I have more than their homeless and minimum wage employees because they have to pay taxes... hell this is a good racket.

I grew-up in the citrus industry and in ranching. You know what would happen to those jobs that "Americans would not do" if we did not have the illegals to do them? We would pay a decent wage so Americans would do it happily, it ain't hard.

Please keep one thing in mind... I am against the practice of illegals and the idea of being complacent toward them... not the people as individuals.

They deserve to be treated with dignity and need to be encouraged to comply with the law. Some of the best people I have know have been illegals who think that it is the only way because that is the culture that they grew-up in.

They were not fortunate like me to be brought up to take the bull by the horns as an American, they think of a quick fix, go to America... get a job... send the money home... and don't think past that. It is cultural, we have an obligation as a nation, as neighbors to help with the corruption and with that attitude, not be assholes about it.

We still hire people because it is the only way to stay competitive, when the day comes... and don't get me wrong, my family looks forward to that day (we pay our pickers better than any and they thank us for it, we get the same ones every year and they are loyal to us) we will be happy to pay a decent wage for legal labor to pick the fruit. Our family remembers when it was that way. We still do all we can do get our pickers legal... it is damn hard, but NOT impossible.

Americans do terrible jobs, I have had some. Many of the jobs I did at a distillery were NASTY (yeast and sugar bags were as much as lbs and had to be taken up 5 flights of steps up to 40 times a day the mash clean-up, maggots and rotten stuff... we have our own waste-water treatment plant), an organic fertilizer plant (I bet you can figure that out), large waste water treatment plants are union run and you don't wanna' know what they have to do when a pump or pipe breaks, small family pig farms, organic farming that takes some education like grafting (those workers do all the work, including the nasty stuff), LPNs do some of the most disgusting things you don't wanna' think about and the list goes on and on and on...
It is just one of the stupidest things I have ever heard uttered by educated people "Illegals do jobs Americans won't do" & to have media people keep saying it just makes the lie worse. Fruit picking is not that bad, cleaning rooms and toilets is not that bad, I cleaned bathrooms as a bar and restaurant worker... not my favorite job, but not the worst I have done by a long-shot and small business owners from restaurants to B&Bs do it every day.
Again... just a STUPID thing to say. Before the days of lots of illegals and after we, in the ag biz, will pay a decent wage that Americans will be happy to do the work for.
Wanna' hear a dirty lil' secret?
They make a crap-load of money picking citrus now... yup, and they DO NOT want Anglos to know about and we don't say crap because ... we we like them plus I don't know of a harder working group. Dude Mexicans can WORK! Give RESPEK!
Secret is that citrus is paid by the amount picked and quality of fruit (by the amount of sugar in the fruit), so in three months a good picker can make as much as someone who makes $8-10 does in a year. No shit.
So, at least in my, not so limited view, this issue is far more complicated than it appears.
They live like bums because the pickers are here for one reason, the same reason college students risk their lives in the Alaskan fishing industry, sorta'.
They come, bust their ass (I mean working so hard as to be doing permanent damage to their bodies, I have seen it, WORKING and you cannot stop them from doing it) making every dime they can for a year to ten, but usually just a few. Sending every dime they don't need to live on home, because it is at risk here from thieves (also, I don't know how much the person who lets them use the SS # takes off the top other places... I did not let them take too much... the guy we worked with was married into our family). When they move home they use it to buy a home and set up a business... their dream, and take care of their families, including parents, grandparents, etc.
Am I saying that this is honorable, in intent, no. I do not think it is.
This money is not being taxed, the jobs are being stolen from Americans... and they are not taking all of that amazing energy fixing their own nation.
I like to imagine what that kind of commitment and work ethic on a national scale would do in just a few years lased in on eradicating corruption and modernizing Mexico... it boggles the mind.

This is just from the Mexican, Central and South American perspective
and from my narrow view... basically I am all for immigration, it is
what this nation was built on, LEGAL immigration.

[billybob]

This shit didn't happen overnight.
Handy that a government with no moral standing has it as a diversionary tactic though.

[Shocker]

Originally Posted by billybob

This shit didn't happen overnight.
Handy that a government with no moral standing has it as a diversionary tactic though.

of course because it must not be important at all to protect our borders and citizens...crazy diversionaries

[billybob]

Nice try, but for decades the authorities have known of the problem, but only addressed it in a token manner. There are now many thousands of Americans whose parents arrived 'illegally', whole sectors of the community who didn't bother to pick up a green card on the way in, and whole industries that rely on cheap labour to supply what their legitimate customers want at a price their customers are willing to pay.

The whole issue focuses on one easily-identifiable group. Because I am white and speak good English, I could most likely fly in, fail to leave, buy an identity and stay indeffinitely. This shameless playing of the race card against Hispanics encourages the perpetually self-righteous to tar all Hispanics with the same brush.
How long before we see them rounded up in dawn raids and shipped out without any further trial? How long before a Hispanic family born in America "accidentally' gets shipped off to a country they've never been to and has to spend a lot of time and money establishing that they have every right to be in America.

Hitler had the Jews as his rallying point for the disaffected. Bush has the illegals. Stop the rot now. The illegals have always been an issue, but there's far worse that needs to be addressed first. Like having an incompetent and dishonest President.

[Shocker]

Originally Posted by billybob

Because I am white and speak good English...

Are you sure you don't speak English well?

[Happy Monkey]

He said "good", not "proper".

[Shocker]

LOL I'm just being difficult. I don't think that the language someone speaks or even how well they speak it matters so much as if they have broken our laws in order to be here. This is a free country, so if you have come here legally, I don't care where it is from and you can speak whatever language you want to. If you aren't here legally, then you aren't in much of a position to say or do anything in any language, in my opinion at least.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Illegals spit on our souls.