Horses and such... - Page 2

Hoof Hearted · 09-02-2006, 11:47 PM

It is genetics. You cannot train a horse to gait who does not already have the genetics to be ABLE to gait.

I am unfamiliar with the American gaited breeds; American Saddlebred, Tennessee Walking Horse, Racking Horse, Rocky Mountain Horse, Pacers et cetera...I have only recently educated myself on the Peruvian Pasos and Paso Finos, as those are the two gaited breeds I have owned in the past 4 years.

In 1493, Columbus' second voyage to the Caribbean, he brought horses from Spain to Santo Domingo. They were of Andalusian, Spanish Barb and Spanish Jennet descent. The Andalusian and Barb horses provided the phenotype (the look) and the Jennet provided the genetic propensity to gait smoothly, genotype (genetics). The Andys and Barbs are thriving today with a loyal following, but the Jennet is extinct.
Horses were taken to Puerto Rico by Martin de Salazar in 1509. Diego de Velasquez invaded Cuba with eight horses and mares in 1511. 1512 saw horses at the Isthmus and in 1517, Cortes took 17, including one foal born aboard ship, to Mexico.

The horses that Columbus and the other explorers brought are the foundation of our native USA Mustangs. Sometimes you will hear stories of the Pacing Stallions of our American West, these stories are about the gait that managed to carry through from those first horses the intrepid explorers brought with them.

Anyhow, for 500 years, the islands of Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic and the mainlands of Colombia and Peru have been breeding these horses with little outside influence. This has managed to keep the gait genetically within the breed. Our USA Mustangs have experienced many outcrossings of diverse domesticated horses, turned feral or purposely turned loose, of TB to draft blood and I feel the gait has been lost through those crossings.

In Peru, (Peruvian Paso) the breed is known for the wide swinging front legs, called "termino", a movement actually begun at the shoulder. This is a variation of the gait that was developed from environmental influence. In the Pampas (area where cattle are run, very swampy) the horses had to lift their front legs over the mud and learned to swing them out to the side before putting them down. The Peruvian Paso also developed a larger body mass, though the phenotype still looks similar, with rounded bodies, high head carriage and luxuriant manes/tails. This resulted from their geographical isolation and different grazing available for the land.

The Paso Fino travels without termino. I called it lateral in the above photo of the horse with 2up/2down legs because in that photo it appears to be lateral (same side) movement...but the gait is actually "isochronal", which means evenly spaced. The Peruvian and Paso Finos have a 4-beat footfall with evenly spaced steps. It sounds like: taca taca taca. Because it is an evenly spaced 4-beat gait, it is not a pace, which is truly lateral. The pacing horse lifts both legs on the same side at the same time and sets them down together at the same time, making a 2-beat gait. The trot is also a 2-beat gait, but the diagonal legs move together.

Back to 4-beat gait.
This gait, being isochronal, is actually BOTH lateral AND diagonal. There are periods in the gait when the horse is supported by two legs (sometimes the same side, sometimes diagonal sides) and times when it is supported by 3 legs. The legs appear to move in a wave...the R hind lifts, then the R front lifts. The R hind sets down, the L hind lifts up, the R front sets down and the L front lifts up and begins the process over again.

All horses can walk (called a flat-walk by the gaited breeds), trot, canter and gallop. Gaited horses are able to do the 'extra' gaits, basically a 4-beat gait called different things by the different breeds; Icelandics call it "tolt or flying pace", Paso Finos call it "fino, corto and largo" (3 different speeds), Peruvian Pasos call it "paso llano and sobreandando" (2 different speeds), then it is also called "racking" or "running walk" in our American gaited breeds. The one thing these horses have in common, is their ancestors trace back to gaited horses or the Spanish Jennet. If the genetics aren't there, the horse cannot gait.

Was that too much info?

Hoof Hearted · 09-02-2006, 11:54 PM

Here is a short video of Emperador gaiting in his corral. He is a Paso Fino stallion about 24 years of age.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lynngallu...rt10_27_04.mov

lulu · 09-03-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoof Hearted

Here is a short video of Emperador gaiting in his corral. He is a Paso Fino stallion about 24 years of age.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lynngallu...rt10_27_04.mov

I'd like to thank both Hippikos and HH for a very interesting thread read.
And for the pictures and video provided.

wolf · 09-03-2006, 09:54 AM

Very cool info.

Pacing, incidentally, is not a natural gait. It is faster than trotting, but has to be taught to American Standardbreds, which is why a lot of pacers wear a special type of hobble harness to enforce the gait. Breaking into a gallop disqualifies a pacer. Somewhere in the back of my head I have a bit of trivia that says the hobbles are called "Indiana Pants."

Hoof Hearted · 09-03-2006, 10:51 AM

Sorry Wolf, I disagree.
The Naragansett Pacer was defined as a breed because of its' gait. Today's pacing horses are pacing Standardbreds, and again, I feel they must have the/a gaiting gene to enable them to travel at that specific gait. Icelandic horses have a gait called a flying pace, though I do not know if it is 2-beat or a very, very fast 4-beat or singlefoot step and only called flying pace.
Most Standardbreds compete in trotting races like the Hambletonian, harness racing's Kentucky Derby.

I feel the pace is a natural gait, the hobbles are used to encourage the horse to remain in gait while racing and not break stride into the gallop. Putting hobbles on a non-pacing horse will not make them pace, it will only confuse them.

I'm glad everyone has enjoyed the info and the video.
Please note on the video...that while the horse's front and back ends look "bouncy"...take note of the center of his back, where a rider would sit, moves smoothly along on a flat plane...THAT is the crux of the smooth, glide ride!
hh

Griff · 09-04-2006, 08:04 AM

We went to the trotter races yesterday at Tioga Downs. Pete forgot the camera! They have hobbles for some of the trotters as well to remind them to stay in gait.

Hippikos · 09-04-2006, 09:47 AM

Pacing is genetic determined and therefore not unnatural for many horse breeds, like Icelanders, Lippizaners, Friesians, several warmbloods. Pacing used to be very popular for hundreds of years because of it's smooth ride. In the medieval ages pacing horses were the most expensive riding horses. Increasing use of coaches and better roads lead to different requirements in horses. After that pacing or gait horses disappeared gradually.

Tölt and pacing is not exactly the same. To make it visible look at the figures below.

4-beat Tölt:

(lateral) Pacing:

And this is the usual (diagonal) walk gait:

Not all gait horses are the same as HH said, so differences within the pattern are possible.

As for dressage we don't use the pacing or tölt, we use the basic 4 gaits: walk, trot, canter and gallop with several sub gaites, depending on dressage level, such as extended or working trot and gallop and several figures during the gaits, such as pirouettes, passages, appuyements etc.

There are even more gaites, such as slow gait, fox trot, rack, but I think this is enough for the time being.

Horse breeds have their own gait strengths and weaknesses. For instance our New Forests have strong trot, canter and gallop, but weak walk, they tend to dribble instead of walk. So we train them hard on a steady and relaxed walk.

Cyclefrance · 09-05-2006, 11:06 AM

I'm glad Hippikos started this thread as it's reminded me to let you know that those little horses in the field behind our place are Haflingers - I posted pics of them here

We seem to have a few more now - very intelligent they seem - one new young lady foal is a right madam as well - may try to get some more photos now this thread has prompted me....

Hoof Hearted · 09-05-2006, 02:20 PM

The Haffy's are beautiful!
hh

Hippikos · 09-06-2006, 04:57 AM

Young girls luuuve Haflingers! They absolutely adore them. We had one couple of years ago.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-10-2006, 09:26 PM

The world can always use another horse.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-10-2006, 09:27 PM

one more

Sundae · 09-11-2006, 12:53 PM

Wow. Were you there?

Foals still have the big-eyed baby thing going on, but are less fat n dimply than humans/cats/dogs etc at that stage. I suppose spindly is necessary when you have to be up on your feet to run so quickly.

My horse submission - 2 rescue horses at the farm where we had my Mum's 60th (other photos posted in Images)

xoxoxoBruce · 09-11-2006, 09:55 PM

Nope, those pictures came from Argentina.

I've seen enough horses, cows, sheep, rabbits, cats, dogs and i don't remember what else, being born, to last me the rest of my life. No people though.

jinx · 09-13-2006, 09:28 PM

Wild horses of OBX

09-02-2006, 11:47 PM	#16
Hoof Hearted ...you smell something? Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Monroe, GA Posts: 420	It is genetics. You cannot train a horse to gait who does not already have the genetics to be ABLE to gait. I am unfamiliar with the American gaited breeds; American Saddlebred, Tennessee Walking Horse, Racking Horse, Rocky Mountain Horse, Pacers et cetera...I have only recently educated myself on the Peruvian Pasos and Paso Finos, as those are the two gaited breeds I have owned in the past 4 years. In 1493, Columbus' second voyage to the Caribbean, he brought horses from Spain to Santo Domingo. They were of Andalusian, Spanish Barb and Spanish Jennet descent. The Andalusian and Barb horses provided the phenotype (the look) and the Jennet provided the genetic propensity to gait smoothly, genotype (genetics). The Andys and Barbs are thriving today with a loyal following, but the Jennet is extinct. Horses were taken to Puerto Rico by Martin de Salazar in 1509. Diego de Velasquez invaded Cuba with eight horses and mares in 1511. 1512 saw horses at the Isthmus and in 1517, Cortes took 17, including one foal born aboard ship, to Mexico. The horses that Columbus and the other explorers brought are the foundation of our native USA Mustangs. Sometimes you will hear stories of the Pacing Stallions of our American West, these stories are about the gait that managed to carry through from those first horses the intrepid explorers brought with them. Anyhow, for 500 years, the islands of Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic and the mainlands of Colombia and Peru have been breeding these horses with little outside influence. This has managed to keep the gait genetically within the breed. Our USA Mustangs have experienced many outcrossings of diverse domesticated horses, turned feral or purposely turned loose, of TB to draft blood and I feel the gait has been lost through those crossings. In Peru, (Peruvian Paso) the breed is known for the wide swinging front legs, called "termino", a movement actually begun at the shoulder. This is a variation of the gait that was developed from environmental influence. In the Pampas (area where cattle are run, very swampy) the horses had to lift their front legs over the mud and learned to swing them out to the side before putting them down. The Peruvian Paso also developed a larger body mass, though the phenotype still looks similar, with rounded bodies, high head carriage and luxuriant manes/tails. This resulted from their geographical isolation and different grazing available for the land. The Paso Fino travels without termino. I called it lateral in the above photo of the horse with 2up/2down legs because in that photo it appears to be lateral (same side) movement...but the gait is actually "isochronal", which means evenly spaced. The Peruvian and Paso Finos have a 4-beat footfall with evenly spaced steps. It sounds like: taca taca taca. Because it is an evenly spaced 4-beat gait, it is not a pace, which is truly lateral. The pacing horse lifts both legs on the same side at the same time and sets them down together at the same time, making a 2-beat gait. The trot is also a 2-beat gait, but the diagonal legs move together. Back to 4-beat gait. This gait, being isochronal, is actually BOTH lateral AND diagonal. There are periods in the gait when the horse is supported by two legs (sometimes the same side, sometimes diagonal sides) and times when it is supported by 3 legs. The legs appear to move in a wave...the R hind lifts, then the R front lifts. The R hind sets down, the L hind lifts up, the R front sets down and the L front lifts up and begins the process over again. All horses can walk (called a flat-walk by the gaited breeds), trot, canter and gallop. Gaited horses are able to do the 'extra' gaits, basically a 4-beat gait called different things by the different breeds; Icelandics call it "tolt or flying pace", Paso Finos call it "fino, corto and largo" (3 different speeds), Peruvian Pasos call it "paso llano and sobreandando" (2 different speeds), then it is also called "racking" or "running walk" in our American gaited breeds. The one thing these horses have in common, is their ancestors trace back to gaited horses or the Spanish Jennet. If the genetics aren't there, the horse cannot gait. Was that too much info? __________________ I have the ability of single-minded determination and focu...Hey, look! A horse!

09-02-2006, 11:54 PM	#17
Hoof Hearted ...you smell something? Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Monroe, GA Posts: 420	Here is a short video of Emperador gaiting in his corral. He is a Paso Fino stallion about 24 years of age. http://home.earthlink.net/~lynngallu...rt10_27_04.mov __________________ I have the ability of single-minded determination and focu...Hey, look! A horse!

09-03-2006, 09:54 AM	#19
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Very cool info. Pacing, incidentally, is not a natural gait. It is faster than trotting, but has to be taught to American Standardbreds, which is why a lot of pacers wear a special type of hobble harness to enforce the gait. Breaking into a gallop disqualifies a pacer. Somewhere in the back of my head I have a bit of trivia that says the hobbles are called "Indiana Pants." __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

09-03-2006, 10:51 AM	#20
Hoof Hearted ...you smell something? Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Monroe, GA Posts: 420	Sorry Wolf, I disagree. The Naragansett Pacer was defined as a breed because of its' gait. Today's pacing horses are pacing Standardbreds, and again, I feel they must have the/a gaiting gene to enable them to travel at that specific gait. Icelandic horses have a gait called a flying pace, though I do not know if it is 2-beat or a very, very fast 4-beat or singlefoot step and only called flying pace. Most Standardbreds compete in trotting races like the Hambletonian, harness racing's Kentucky Derby. I feel the pace is a natural gait, the hobbles are used to encourage the horse to remain in gait while racing and not break stride into the gallop. Putting hobbles on a non-pacing horse will not make them pace, it will only confuse them. I'm glad everyone has enjoyed the info and the video. Please note on the video...that while the horse's front and back ends look "bouncy"...take note of the center of his back, where a rider would sit, moves smoothly along on a flat plane...THAT is the crux of the smooth, glide ride! hh __________________ I have the ability of single-minded determination and focu...Hey, look! A horse!

09-04-2006, 08:04 AM	#21
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	We went to the trotter races yesterday at Tioga Downs. Pete forgot the camera! They have hobbles for some of the trotters as well to remind them to stay in gait. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis Last edited by Griff; 09-04-2006 at 08:08 AM.

09-04-2006, 09:47 AM	#22
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	Gaites Pacing is genetic determined and therefore not unnatural for many horse breeds, like Icelanders, Lippizaners, Friesians, several warmbloods. Pacing used to be very popular for hundreds of years because of it's smooth ride. In the medieval ages pacing horses were the most expensive riding horses. Increasing use of coaches and better roads lead to different requirements in horses. After that pacing or gait horses disappeared gradually. Tölt and pacing is not exactly the same. To make it visible look at the figures below. 4-beat Tölt: (lateral) Pacing: And this is the usual (diagonal) walk gait: Not all gait horses are the same as HH said, so differences within the pattern are possible. As for dressage we don't use the pacing or tölt, we use the basic 4 gaits: walk, trot, canter and gallop with several sub gaites, depending on dressage level, such as extended or working trot and gallop and several figures during the gaits, such as pirouettes, passages, appuyements etc. There are even more gaites, such as slow gait, fox trot, rack, but I think this is enough for the time being. Horse breeds have their own gait strengths and weaknesses. For instance our New Forests have strong trot, canter and gallop, but weak walk, they tend to dribble instead of walk. So we train them hard on a steady and relaxed walk. __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

09-05-2006, 11:06 AM	#23
Cyclefrance Pump my ride! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England Posts: 1,890	I'm glad Hippikos started this thread as it's reminded me to let you know that those little horses in the field behind our place are Haflingers - I posted pics of them here We seem to have a few more now - very intelligent they seem - one new young lady foal is a right madam as well - may try to get some more photos now this thread has prompted me.... __________________ Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears

09-05-2006, 02:20 PM	#24
Hoof Hearted ...you smell something? Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Monroe, GA Posts: 420	The Haffy's are beautiful! hh __________________ I have the ability of single-minded determination and focu...Hey, look! A horse!

09-06-2006, 04:57 AM	#25
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	Young girls luuuve Haflingers! They absolutely adore them. We had one couple of years ago. __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

09-10-2006, 09:26 PM	#26
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The world can always use another horse. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. Last edited by xoxoxoBruce; 04-07-2007 at 05:50 PM.

09-10-2006, 09:27 PM	#27
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	one more __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. Last edited by xoxoxoBruce; 04-07-2007 at 05:50 PM.

09-11-2006, 12:53 PM	#28
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Wow. Were you there? Foals still have the big-eyed baby thing going on, but are less fat n dimply than humans/cats/dogs etc at that stage. I suppose spindly is necessary when you have to be up on your feet to run so quickly. My horse submission - 2 rescue horses at the farm where we had my Mum's 60th (other photos posted in Images) Attached Images __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

09-11-2006, 09:55 PM	#29
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Nope, those pictures came from Argentina. I've seen enough horses, cows, sheep, rabbits, cats, dogs and i don't remember what else, being born, to last me the rest of my life. No people though. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-13-2006, 09:28 PM	#30
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Wild horses of OBX __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)