Picking Up in the Middle of the Argument...

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

That quote has it backwards. The farther left a government moves, the more completely it controls the lives of its citizens (subjects? slaves?).

And also the farther right.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

And also the farther right.

Oh, I don't know ... fascism can be seen as a variant of socialism. You have the same main criteria - centralized power, socioeconomic control, oppression through terror and censorship. I'm talking about moving to the right meaning progressively less and less government control of individuals. Fascism doesn't fall on the right in that scenario. Anarchy would. But then anarchy isn't a form of government at all, so it wouldn't be accurate to put it on the 'right' ...

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

I'm talking about moving to the right meaning progressively less and less government control of individuals.

If that's what the right was talking about along with you, that would be great.

[DanaC]

Isn't it strange that every truly socialist/communist government has disintegrated? Must be something to that free-market stuff after all

Communism only really 'works' effectively if it's worldwide. That is one of the things which make it highly unlikely to succeed, given the likelihood of getting all the world's countries to accomodate it. It's also one of the reasons that I don't think a truly 'communist' state has actually existed. There was a period of 'pre communism' in Russia during the early stages of the revolution, a rift already forming/formed between two entirely different approaches and visions. That was quickly followed by a distortion of the original goals and ideals. China, similarly operated along distorted lines as indeed have most(possibly all) systems claiming to be 'communist' or 'socialist'.

The fact is that communism and socialism exist in their pure form only in the realm of theory. Attempts to implement them have either been softened or distorted to the point that they no longer bear close relation to theory from which they were derived.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The fact is that communism and socialism exist in their pure form only in the realm of theory. Attempts to implement them have either been softened or distorted to the point that they no longer bear close relation to theory from which they were derived.

Right - we've all heard that before - Soviet Communism wasn't 'real' communism, etc. etc. They just didn't do it 'right' - even Lenin admitted he'd made mistakes. He regretted not having killed far more people. Now that's communism for you!

It's pretty much intellectually dishonest to claim that communism 'works', but that every country in which it has been implemented, and failed, just hasn't done it correctly. Those who ran it figured they were doing it 'correctly'. If every political system can be claimed to not be what it claims to be and holds itself to be, just because others are embarrassed about its failure, it becomes nonsensical to try to discuss political systems. It's like saying there are no democracies in the world because they are all imperfect. Well, yes, they are imperfect - but they are still examples of the best we can do, so far, with democratic systems. The same goes for communism.

[DanaC]

You have the same main criteria - centralized power, socioeconomic control, oppression through terror and censorship

There really was more to socialism than those criteria and there were other distinctly unsocialist aspects of fascism.

That they shared some traits does not make them the same. Left and right often share characteristics; usually when the systems they inspire/institute are a response to similar economic or social problems and needs.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That they shared some traits does not make them the same. Left and right often share characteristics; usually when the systems they inspire/institute are a response to similar economic or social problems and needs.

I know socialism and fascism are not the same. The characteristics they share in terms of overwhelming central government control and oppression of individuals are what I was looking at in terms of the right-to-left spectrum.

The 'systems' they both 'inspire' are typically mass murder and enslavement. I can't imagine what economic or social problem/need would require such a response. Both communism and fascism are all about individual lust for power. The social problems thing is just the excuse they use to seize it.

[DanaC]

It's pretty much intellectually dishonest to claim that communism 'works', but that every country in which it has been implemented, and failed, just hasn't done it correctly.

My point is not that communism 'works' but has yet to be correctly implemented; rather my point is that it is an idea that can exist in theory only. It's a theoretical construct that does not work when implemented in the real world. That doesn't mean I don't think it has anything to offer as a theory. None of our systems derive from a single source. You no more live in a pure state of capitalism than can I live in a pure state of communism.

The fact is that communism and socialism exist in their pure form only in the realm of theory.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by DanaC

It's a theoretical construct that does not work when implemented in the real world.

We can agree on that, anyway.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by DanaC

My point is not that communism 'works' but has yet to be correctly implemented; rather my point is that it is an idea that can exist in theory only. It's a theoretical construct that does not work when implemented in the real world. That doesn't mean I don't think it has anything to offer as a theory. None of our systems derive from a single source. You no more live in a pure state of capitalism than can I live in a pure state of communism.

In ISRAEL it is "correctly implemented".

If the government we have now is an example of conservatism, please give me anything but. Christianity has become the State religion, although everyone pretends otherwise; prejudice toward certain groups is encouraged - like gays, people who live at or near the poverty line, hispanics (they're all illegal immigrants); etc. The government keeps people in line through fear tactics - what's the terrorism rating for today? Yellow? Red? Homeland security has taken our individual rights to privacy away, Congress is busily crunching up the Bill of Rights to the point where soon those words will mean about as much as some slick comedy routine; thousands of people are being held in prisons without access to either an attorney or a fair and speedy trial; torture is now acceptable; and Halliburten continues to gloat as its CEO's and stockholders rake in the benefits of corporate welfare on a magnificent scale.

I had to go up to the wealthy ski resort of Telluride today regarding a legal matter I posted about in another thread. My Zuni friend came along with me for the ride. He wandered around town while I was at the courthouse filling out endless legal forms. When we met up again, he spat on the sidewalk and said, "Let's get out of here. This is the most unfriendly town I've ever been to." Well, Telluride has a high percentage of Mexican workers who clean the rich folks condo's or do the janitorial work, etc. People mistook my Zuni friend for one of "those people" who are not supposed to be strolling the main street of Telluride with all its chic shops and elegant, over-priced restaurants.

My Zuni friend looked around at the wealthy white yuppies giving him a wide path on the sidewalk, and said "Stupid wetbacks! I wish they'd all go back home."

Conservatism. Pfffffft!

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

In ISRAEL it is "correctly implemented".

And yet the self-styled capitalists in the GOP remain up Israels *cough*.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Griff

And yet the self-styled capitalists in the GOP remain up Israels *cough*.

Capitalism goes with democracy, Griff, as it prospers best there. All one nigh-seamless whole. A good capitalist is a democrat and a good democrat supports democracies over anything else or he's not much of a democrat. The same should apply, I should think, to libertarians.

[Griff]

My point was that Israel is a socialist state and the GOP isn't exactly capitalist either, being concerned mostly with protecting industries and distributing tax dollars. Given enough democracy Capitalism will cease to exist.


The neo-com agenda is far too enamored of state exercised force to include libertarians.

[DanaC]

Both communism and fascism are all about individual lust for power.

I disagree. That's what communism inevitably descended into, in Russia but the very early stages (ie. the revolution) I don't believe were driven by lust for individual power. Hitler did have a lust for individual power right from the start.

You state mass murder and enslavement as characterising features of both these systems in order to show that they are similar. But other non fascist and non socialist states have also engaged in those practices. That doesn't mean those states are of a similar political nature. Mass murder and enslavement are not the defining characteristics of either, but they are symptomatic of both.