Israeli airstrike into Gaza kills fighter

[Ibby]

My god, hes almost as bad as Ann Coulter.

Seriously, UG, you're a fucking joke. "plenty of room over here on the side of the angels"? Could you possibly be any more of a ridiculous, unthinking, arrogant prick of a buffoon?

A total joke, not even worth any sort of rebuttal. Just like Coulter, youre past the point of argument and into the realm of ridicule.

And its all the more pity that youre wrong on every count, politically. At least if you were stupid and liberal there'd be some hope for you; instead, youre stupid and backwards too.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

My salvation lies in the fact that I have become rather right of center, sonny. You haven't the arguments to bring me to the side you say is yours (but then you say a lot of stuff), whereas I am secure in the belief that over about the next ten years, you're going to realize just how good at this I am. I can wait. I've earned my arrogance, which is of course what the weak or untried call the activities and initiatives of the strong and well founded.

I disagree with you on some things, Ibbie, precisely because I think. Precisely because I seek knowledge, and understanding. Understanding, by the way, is not necessarily approval.

As for Ann Coulter, hey, smart is sexy. But according to something you once mentioned, you wouldn't know. But it's good not to hide in the closet; closets are dark and narrow. Ann's smart enough to put the apostrophe in a contraction, too.

[fargon]

After having 6,000,000 of your friends and family turned into air pollution, you might be a little quick on the trigger. Not to mention that every week or so, some bunch of jealous idiots is blowing up a bus, or restaurant.
If the Arabs would leave the Jews alone, the Jews would leave them alone.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by fargon

After having 6,000,000 of your friends and family turned into air pollution, you might be a little quick on the trigger. Not to mention that every week or so, some bunch of jealous idiots is blowing up a bus, or restaurant.
If the Arabs would leave the Jews alone, the Jews would leave them alone.

Most of the terrorist organizations against Israel is because of Israel's occupations. Hezbollah was started by Israel's occupation of Lebanon. If we put in the one-state solution then a neighboring country can't just blindly attack Israel because there would be an equal number of Palestinians in there as well.

[Kagen4o4]

Originally Posted by fargon

After having 6,000,000 of your friends and family turned into air pollution, you might be a little quick on the trigger. Not to mention that every week or so, some bunch of jealous idiots is blowing up a bus, or restaurant.
If the Arabs would leave the Jews alone, the Jews would leave them alone.

are people still using that as an excuse? i think the jews have done quite well for themselves. one group of people attacks them (that havent been for centuries) and suddenly every fucking one of them needs special treatment. so what happens? they get given someone else country!

[fargon]

Originally Posted by Kagen4o4

are people still using that as an excuse? i think the jews have done quite well for themselves. one group of people attacks them (that havent been for centuries) and suddenly every fucking one of them needs special treatment. so what happens? they get given someone else country!

Israel is not looking for special treatment, just peace with their neighbors.
All they have ever wanted is to live in peace, in the the land God gave them, so many years ago. It is in the book of Exodus, "So it be written, so it be done".

[DanaC]

If you're going to blame the Zionists -- and that's too close to antisemitism to be palatable,

So, no matter what the Zionists do, regardless how brutal, aggressive, dehumanising or cruel, they can never carry blame?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by ”UG”

It's always time to stop genocide, but the Israelis, knowing restraint, don't think genocidally, and the Arabs, based on the evidence of their own literature and newspapers, clearly do. The Israelis are allergic to genocide and will remain so. It's ingrained in the culture, I believe ineradicably.

You are talking stupid. I have given many more examples of how the Israelis are genocidal than you have given me how the Arabs are genocidal.

Ask why the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan does nothing to eradicate or alleviate their poverty, but keeps them right there on the Middle Eastern equivalent of reservations. No Palestinian is allowed to seek his betterment in friendlier climes, is he? There, I say, is the problem.

Once again, why can’t Israel take in the Palestinians?

We expanded our borders in a mighty migration of smallholders. Are we in the wrong by reason of migration from a worse situation to a better? If your ancestors didn't figure it was all to the good to come here, you'd be writing from Europe. If Cro-Magnon early modern humans didn't migrate into Europe, we'd all be ... miffed at GEICO.

Yes we did and even though we can’t do anything about it, it is still technically wrong. We committed genocide on the Native Americans and I will admit it and Israel is doing the same exact thing. Also, I just want Israel-Palestine to become one state so your argument does bear any weight with this since it has no place.

There's a law forbidding the establishment of new nations? New one on me! Maybe it's only against the law in the Arab states.

Ok, I call for a new Mexican state, since it was first their land, in California, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico. It is not illegal so I can do it. Also, all non-Mexicans will be forced to leave. That includes you buddy.

Oh yeah? What's better? How do I distinguish the foundations of your views from outright antisemitism, then?

I am not calling for the death of the Jews or revenge on Jews. I just want them to stop killing Palestinians and live peacefully with them.

[Kagen4o4]

maybe they should give their neighbours house back. that would be a start

[Undertoad]

It could be many reasons. They may want to make themselves look better in the world community, they may want peace, or they may want to encourage Gaza terrorist groups to come into Israel to attack instead of attacking the soldiers stationed in Gaza.

The question was, when they gave back the land, why were they attacked on precisely those fronts? The answer is, the people who attacked them saw land give-backs as a sign of Israeli weakness.

Why would Jews want to live as a minority when they can live in Israel? I don't see the relevance of this.

But 10% of Israel's government is Arab. Why would Arabs want to live as a minority in Israel when they can live in Arabic lands?

...and they used it as a chance to expand their borders.

Right, they won wars in which they were attacked to expand the area from which they cannot be attacked. Followup question, is that wrong? How?

I also couldn't find the poll you were talking about it. Could you lead me to it?

Actually I don't know that they've been asked. But in 2000 Arafat was basically offered it at Camp David and his answer was to reject it and start the Second Intifada.

(What happened when Jordan was created) I didn't find anything on that.

The Jews were unceremoniously kicked out. They don't want "right of return" and nobody protests for it on their behalf.

A single-state potentially gets rid of Zionism, which started most of the trouble in the first place, presents the Palestinians and Israelis as equals instead of an almost caste system, and will show the world that two very different groups can work together and find peace.

That is incorrect. Correct answer: Arabic peoples would, through sheer demographics, soon outnumber Jewish peoples in Israel, leading to the practical end of the state.

Originally Posted by Kagen

maybe they should give their neighbours house back. that would be a start

They gave back Gaza. They gave back the sections of Lebanon they had occupied. Then they were attacked on exactly those fronts. Can you explain?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The question was, when they gave back the land, why were they attacked on precisely those fronts? The answer is, the people who attacked them saw land give-backs as a sign of Israeli weakness.

These terrorist groups are going to attack Israel no matter how much land they take or give back. They stated that they will not stop until Israel is destroyed so I don't think it has to do with a showing of weakness.

But 10% of Israel's government is Arab. Why would Arabs want to live as a minority in Israel when they can live in Arabic lands?

Many reasons. One, they have no where to go. Two, because they lived there before Israel was created and they still think that they land it theirs. Three, even though they are discriminated against and work very shitty jobs, they still have jobs and can avoid poverty this way. I would be supportive of forcing Jordan and Syria to take back Jews if it ever came to that but I doubt that will happen.

Right, they won wars in which they were attacked to expand the area from which they cannot be attacked. Followup question, is that wrong? How?

It technically isn't wrong. It just shows about their goal to take over their entire dream Israel no matter who lives there now. It isn't a smart international move even though there isn't anything wrong with it since many imperialistic countries have done it in the past.

Actually I don't know that they've been asked. But in 2000 Arafat was basically offered it at Camp David and his answer was to reject it and start the Second Intifada.

This doesn't represent the Palestinian people, but the Palestinian extreme. Yasser Arafat is the leader of PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization), which was created in response to Israel's occupancy in West Bank, Gaza Strip, etc, to destroy the state of Israel. Of course he would deny peace but that doesn't mean the Palestinian people wouldn't.

The Jews were unceremoniously kicked out. They don't want "right of return" and nobody protests for it on their behalf.

If the Jews want to go back to Jordan I will support them 100% but as long as they have Israel they will most likely stay there.

That is incorrect. Correct answer: Arabic peoples would, through sheer demographics, soon outnumber Jewish peoples in Israel, leading to the practical end of the state.

As I said before:

Originally Posted by Piercehawkeye45

If a single-state solution happened then we would have to work to avoid (Jewish expulsion and discrimination) at all costs if it ever presents itself as a problem.

Of course the one-state solution is going to have its initial problems and we will have to work with both the Jews and Palestinians to make sure we don't repeat what has happened to both the Jews and Arabs in the past century .

They gave back Gaza. They gave back the sections of Lebanon they had occupied. Then they were attacked on exactly those fronts. Can you explain?

As I said before (even though this question isn't directed towards me) that Palestinian terrorist groups, founded by Israel's occupancies, will not stop until Israel is destroyed. In order to stop these groups you have to help the Palestinians and get them to stop hating Israel, which doesn't mean Israel's destruction, and make the terrorist groups hated and outcasts within Palestine.

[DanaC]

And you call Israel's defensive efforts to deal with this menace one of the closest things to fascism we have now? Boy -- you're less than half my age and of far less experience of this world -- are you quite certain you know anything at all of fascism?

UG, I hold almost exactly the same views on this topic as those so elequently argued by Pierce. I know a fair amount about fascism. I know that it is still a problem smouldering at the heart of Europe. I know that the current breed have substituted the word 'Jew' in most of their propoganda, for the words 'arab' or 'moslem'. I also know that this does not mean those groups have ceased their hatred of Jewish people; it merely means that in today's political and social climate, 'moslem' and 'Arab' are more likely to inspire the kind of parochial racism which fascism so readily turns to its cause.

I spend a good portion of every year along with a bunch of other activists, working against the spread of fascism in England, where we have fascist parties polling approximately 7-10 % of the electorate. In Europe's mainland, they do a little better. Fighting fascism has been my main political issue since I was 18 years old. I've known good friends hurt during those years, by Combat 18, the paramilitary wing of the British National Party (the 1 and 8 refer to A and H, for Adolf Hitler. They used to be called Combat 88, with the two 8s corresponding to H and H, for Heil Hitler) I have, over the years gained some understanding of the history of fascism in Europe: the trends they exloited; the methods they used; the manner in which they were able to turn a large percentage of the population to tacit acceptance of widespread slaughter, a willful blindness to what was occurring.

But by all means, call me a fascist sympathiser for not supporting Israel's right to commit it's own set of war crimes, merely because they suffered so greatly. That they were victims of one of the worlds greatest massacres, does not give them carte blanche to commit new crimes. To equate disagreement with Israel, the nation state, as anti-semitism is ludicrous. Your labelling people as fascistic for not agreeing with Israel's stance is both ludicrous and crass. Your assumption, meanwhile, that anybody who disagrees with Israel must have a lack of either education, or age is frankly laughable having seen the cogent arguments pierce put forward, as compared to the ideological ranting you seem to favour on this topic.

[TheMercenary]

Good Shot, but damm they could have done it cheaper.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla
Seems you have a little problem here with doing right by the Jews

UG, not being a Zionist does not mean one is an anti-Semite.
I personally know Jews that are not Zionists.
The two have nothing to do with each other at all.
Why not give US homes in modern cities, randomly, to Native Americans? If someone tried, I would kill them. I am not exaggerating or making a point... I would kill them.

It IS the same thing that happened in Israel and, though I hope I would not, I would probably react the same way Palestinians and others have to Israel's treatment.
If I did not have Blackhawks and tanks and generations of my and my neighbor's schoolchildren were constantly murdered, eventually I may come to the conclusion that the only way to make it stop is to show them what it feels like.
I truly hope not... but, thank goodness, I don't have to find out what that feels like. But, I can understand how.
Israel needs to give Palestine their land back, get the fuck out in ALL ways, it is not theirs to "monitor" they need to get out of Lebanon, yes they stole that land too in the sixties and need to give it back, ALL of it (they only "gave back" a portion).
There is no god and no one promised them shit.
Religion... this is what it gives us, steaming piles of shit and death.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I dunno, rkzen. Pierce's position is not easily distinguished from antisemitism, and antisemites invariably try and draw over themselves a veil of anti-Zionism.

I can't see it for sour owl shit. He's compromised, and terribly.

To be a good human being, one should be in sympathy with the democracy there, not the un-democracies. The undemocracies are inherently oppressive, and they insist upon being at feud with the chosen people. Stupid and destructive. No one should sympathize with such.

It's also too much to expect for anyone to be civilized in war. Were you Israeli, would you submit to what the Arabs explicitly have in mind? Of course not. Thus, there is no point in further discussion. You either support the people of decency, or you fail to, and whore along with the indecent! Something I never do, and thus I'm on the side of the angels. Join me there, and give up all this fascistic bull.