The only way to win an argument

[Cloud]

oh, I'm not giving up on The Cellar just yet. Just expressing an opinion.

It doesn't matter if it's online or in RL--I just don't like arguments. Discussion, sure. "My way or the highway" -- no.

[SadistSecret]

All agruments are discussions.

My way or the highway is more like an ultimatum.

Originally Posted by glatt

Your style is to speak in absolutes. I think that rubs many people the wrong way.

I make statements, I rarely state that I am entirely correct. It has always confused me that people load their own shit onto my statements and/or make them things that they are not.

[Cloud]

. . . but not all discussions devolve into arguments.

Some suggestions on how to keep a disagreement from becoming an argument:

1. Welcome the disagreement. Treat it as an opportunity to learn something new.

2. Distrust your first instinctive impression. Stop and think--don't be knee-jerk defensive.

3. Control your temper. Frankly, I think I scared myself as a child with my temper, which is why I usually get sad, not mad.

4.Listen first. Give your opponents a chance to talk without interrupting. Everyone wants to be listened to.

5. Look for areas of agreement. Make sure and acknowledge the points you do agree on.

6. Be honest. If you're wrong, admit it. It will disarm your opponents and reduce defensiveness.

7. Promise to think over your opponent's ideas and study them carefully. Step back at the beginning and ask yourself--is my opponent right? Doing this at the beginning avoids set-in-concrete positions later on.

8. Thank your opponents sincerely for their interest. "Anyone who takes the time to disagree with you is interested in the same things you are. Think of them as people who really want to help you, and you may turn your opponents into friends."

9. Postpone action to give both sides time to think through the problem. Ask yourself about the consequences if you win.

Again, all this is straight from "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. A bestseller for 70 years, it's worth the time to pick up a copy at your library and read it.

[Shawnee123]

Now we're just "discussing" semantics.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by glatt

Your style is to speak in absolutes. I think that rubs many people the wrong way.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I make statements, I rarely state that I am entirely correct. It has always confused me that people load their own shit onto my statements and/or make them things that they are not.

I'm not trying to attack you here, so I hope you don't take this personally. I clicked on posts you have made, and only had to go back to last night before I found an example.

In the unpopular opinions thread you said:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Democracy is a terrible option. No true American wants democracy.

Now the first sentence is an attack against democracy. An attack against an idea. No problem there. Everyone here does that - attacks ideas. But in the second sentence, you personalized it.

By saying that no true American wants democracy, you are saying that anyone who wants democracy is not a true American. If I am a person who considers myself a true American, and I also want a democracy, you have just insulted me.

You make statements like this with regularity, which means you are insulting groups with regularity. Eventually, you get around to insulting almost everyone here.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Dale Carnegie

You can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in other people than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you.

[Cloud]

er . . . Dale Carnegie posted? From beyond the grave?

But you're right!

[Shawnee123]

lol...I woke him up especially for that quote!

[Cloud]

Is your real name Anita Blake?

[Shawnee123]

shhhhh...no one is supposed to know.

[Spexxvet]

Cloud, I can't believe you started this big argument.

[piercehawkeye45]

Arguing is only pointless when you have two people that will not move from their position.

I like to see arguing as a friendly way of sharing ideas. I think my definitions of friendly and sharing are a bit off though.

[Stormieweather]

This is only my personal opinion, but I feel quite strongly that one can disagree with someone else...respectfully. It is absolutely not necessary to condemn, criticize, mock, belittle, or berate in the course of stating one's position even if it is diametrically opposed to another's. I don't consider this to be 'walking on eggshells', but simply behaving in a healthy, mature, and emotionally/mentally secure manner.

I don't feel that in order to bolster my 'rightness', I have to prove my opponent to be 'wrong'. I believe what I believe and you are 100% free to disagree. And just because I don't scream it from the rooftops or TYPE IT ALL IN CAPS, or argue you into submission does NOT mean I don't feel strongly. It merely means I am secure enough in myself for it not to matter if the entire world disagrees with me. I am right with myself.

Someone on another forum posted a quote that said something like, 'True listening is hearing what someone else is saying to the extent you are willing to have your view changed'. I beleive that someone who refuses to hear the possibility that someone else's (differing) opinion may contain truths is someone who is unwilling to grow. And because growth is precious to me, I try to see the potential truth or 'rightness' in everything. Sometimes, this gives me great insights and other times, it merely cements my own position.

But no matter which, I believe that by offering other's the same respect I desire, I maintain my self-respect (which means more to me than anything anyone else can give me).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Cloud

an arguer focuses solely on himself or herself, instead of listening. Perhaps that's why I've not been made to feel welcome here, despite a pretty diligent effort on my part to contribute.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Really? Sorry to hear you feel that way. I thought you were pretty well included, and even thinking about it I can't remember anyone arguing with you on anything in particular...

Yes, you surprised me with that comment too. I haven't seen any evidence of you being unwelcome and I am sorry you feel that way. Maybe you just expected something different?

This is a long-established site with many veteran members, so there is a lot of history that can be opaque to newcomers, and it has a character and sense of humor of it's own which I guess can feel brusque, maybe... ascerbic, perhaps. Sometimes the most inane threads take off, sometimes interesting questions go largely unanswered. But that's what I like about it. It's unpredictable and the fluff is avoidable if you're not in the mood and available by the bucketload if you are.

I've found other forums where I guess people are just trying to be friendly but to me the atmosphere is cloying and intrusive and the chatter inane because everyone feels the need to ask personal questions and answer every post, even if it's just to say "I don't know". But I think I felt that just because it was not what I expected/was used to.