Unilateral attacks

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by tw
Thank you for providing obvious logic. If the US should unilaterally attack Iraq due to uncooperation with UN 687, then the US should also unilaterally attack Israel for uncoopertion with UN 242, 338 and UN Jenin investigation.

I wasn't advocating a unilateral attack on Iraq... I was simply pointing out the absurdity of your assertion that we have no beef with Iraq "other than the personal biases of George Jr."

Of course... unilateral attacks on Iraq and Israel might be just the thing here. Historically, they're always successful for us.

[jaguar]

*sighs* Try doing 60-70 hours a week schoolwork and 20 hours work, schoolwork all contributing towards and end of year mark that will decide whether you can get into your uni course or not and see how well you type. I'm enough goddamn caffine to keep half of NYC awake.
As for it being PC

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

- Socrates
Which is what happened every time you used it as a targetm maggie.

And since all evidence says there was no massacre, of course -- of COURSE they want military experts and not politicians to examine the evidence. (That's what this delay is all about.) Because they feel the UN has recently been used as a wedge against them. Because the first UN guy in stupidly painted the bleakest picture he could paint, participating in the propaganda war instead of ending it pointedly. "It smells bad," he said. "It's disgusting and sad." Not "80% of the damage is tactical, there is evidence of booby-trapping, and the body count is consistent with house-to-house fighting."

Erm I’d call destruction of an entire neighbourhood pretty damn sad on top of everything else.

Why have house to house fighting at all? If all you want to do is wage brutal war on a people, the Israelis have excellent means to do that. They have fighter jets and Apache helicopters and serious munitions. If the only goal is a smackdown, send in the jets. The goal here was clearly something different. I think the big picture is yet to emerge, even. I think the real goal was the intelligence information they got from those locations, which they say proves a lot of the secret Arab/Iraqi/Iranian backing of all the warfare. That changes the politics of the thing.

The aim of the campaign has been clear, to destroy the "terrorist infrastructure" you need to be on the ground to do that, that’s why they rounded up every man between 14 and 50.

And as far as war crimes go, there are surely many of them, but the very first one is you don't use unmarked civilians to kill civilians, isn't it?

There's the cause of an occupied people, and then there's the cause of the entire region which prevents there from being any progress on the cause of those people. The real problem is that this is a proxy war and the Palestinians are pawns. The real war is the Arabic/Persian world against the entire west.

Wha? Rightyo then....
Proxy war against the west? You seem to be making a whole lotta logical leaps there i'm not going to even bother trying to follow. If there is a proxy war, its against Isreal, not the west, and ill leave proxy wars at that.
But in all seriousness, why the fuck would they stop bombing now? Isreal has made it clear it'll take all it can, give nothing back and do whatever the fuck it wants? If I was Arafat I'd be saying bomb them, we've got nothing to lose.
So what is Syria et al is supporting Palastine? The US is giving arms to Isreal, why can't they do the same? Because its symmetrical warfare instead of asymmetrical that’s make is all nice and fair? The PLO isn't even allowed real weapons, how are they meant to take on one of the worlds most powerful armies, to argue the killing civilians line is to blow smoke, thin smoke.
The US is so goddman pissweak they can't even push Sharon in the right direction, and in the process have further cemented the Arab world's view that the US doesn't give a shit, if they attack Iraq now it will be with the entire Middle East supporting Iraq, and from where they stand, why not? Celarly the US has learnt nothign since S11, and if it happens again, i won't be in the tiniest bit shocked, you tell the worlds second largest religion in proxy that you don't give a flying fuck, what do you expect?

[Undertoad]

Right, the destruction of a neighborhood is pretty damn sad, but that wasn't the point of the guy's visit. Everybody knows it's sad. I mean, duh.

To avoid tw's "emotional reactions", though, it's very important to give facts, not loaded terms. The whole world wanted to know: what do you see? What really happened? The guy wouldn't say.

Now here's a fact that I wasn't aware of until 5 minutes ago. The UN runs the refugee camp at Jenin.

Does that change anything for you, because it sure does for me. One of the major centers of terrorism, right under their noses for months on end. Nice going.

The more you know. Why is Syria not allowed to give the Palestinians weapons? The main point of the much-ballyhooed UN 242 is that the Arab world has to stop waging war against Israel. Those are terms for peace in the mideast. You know, terms that ended a war, and that are meant to prevent the next one from starting soon.

And that, I think, is the real point of determining that all of the suicide bombing has been operated by the Arabic/Persian world. That world continues to wage war on Israel.

What they didn't have before was proof. Now they do. This sets the surrounding countries back on their heels quite a bit.

The Arabs don't give a shit about the Palestinians. In history, they have killed Palestinians with great vigor. Even bin Laden was a latecomer to the Palestinian cause... never really gave it concern until he thought it would give him some play with Iraq.

NOBODY wanted that land, either, except perhaps for the 3rd most important holy site for Islam, until the Jews were given it outright. Previous to Israel being there, it was land so undesirable that the Brits carved it up as a colony and nobody even took notice. The oil fields are nowhere near it. The only reason they enjoy supporting the Palestinian cause is because it tweaks the nose of the west.

As for the terrorism you seem to be supporting, it is always illegitimate. Always always always. Nobody disputes that, except for a tiny little group of people that has basically broken after being pawns in this cultural war for two generations. If the terrorism is legitimate war, as you say, then F-16s are legitimate war too -- as are refugee camps destroyed by tanks.

And the Arabic world doesn't want "real" war -- although their culture makes them think they do -- because they would lose, and lose bad.

[tw]

Originally posted by Hubris Boy
Of course... unilateral attacks on Iraq and Israel might be just the thing here. Historically, they're always successful for us.

The US unilaterally attacked N Viet Nam. We lost big time. The US was early on in the Korean War. Stalemate. The US unilaterally attacked Somolian war lords. We lost.

But it was Bill Clinton who kept us out of the Balkan until is was time to settle things. Success. The US stayed out of the Persian Gulf until Kuwait was violated. Phenomenal success. The US stayed out of WWII until it was clearly time to settle it. We won big time. The US stayed out of WWI until finally required to settle it. If Wilson's resulting international program had been supported domestically, then settlement would have clearly been better.

My scenario for a Middle East solution is based upon this well proven history. The death rates must be higher and equal. Currently, not enough Israelis are dying to create a demand for peace. Best that we stay away and make sure death continues equally on both sides. Currently it is a one sided slaughter and we are supporting the aggressors. Peace therefore will not happen.

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Right, the destruction of a neighborhood is pretty damn sad, but that wasn't the point of the guy's visit. Everybody knows it's sad. I mean, duh. ...

This post demonstrates so many illogical conclusions that I don't even know where to start.

If UN commentary from Jenin was so wrong, then an honest Israeli government would want lots of press and the most senior core of UN investigators into Jenin three weeks ago. However, Israel fears more facts will get out in support of those original comments and keeps all but 'approved' reporters out of Jenin.

Reality is that Israel has something to hide. ABC News danced around that fact in tonight's report. For every report that says there were no massacres, I read about three that says something very bad happened in Jenin. Of course, only the 'approved' reporters are currently permitted in Jenin - something that Undertoad forgets to mention.

Furthermore, Undertoad conveniently forgets that Israel promised to withdraw immediately about 1 month ago. Accroding to Undertoad, such a withdraw takes time. Yep. Time to invade and withdraw from Hebron - just the latest town to be attacked for no good reason.

Clearly much more than 50 non-Israelis died in Jenin. The numbers will not exceed 500. But most who died were probably not combatents, but must be defined as combatants by Israel to not be guilty of crimes against humanity. Clearly Israel so fears such accusations (as Sharon did in his previous massacre) that Israel will keep the UN even out of their own refugee camp - at least until all evidence is removed. 95% of all killed were not combatants - contrary to another lied from the dichead's governement that Undertoad posted naively. Such Israeli claims continuously reek of a lie. We don't know the numbers, but we do know that anyone who give credence to Israeli claims without independent verification is guilty of emotional bias. Once emotion for Israel is removed, then all claims by the Israeli government have so little credence as to first require independent verification. Without such verification, those claims must be cited as suspect.

In logical terms - why do the Israelis fear any UN commission - especially when said commission is composed of some of the world's most honest and least biased investigators? Why does the invasion of West Bank reek of symptoms found in all previous Sharon 'crimes against humanity'?

All current Middle East violence was part of Sharon's plans to destroy Oslo. He is a shrewd bastard. Explain those last 39 new settlements in the West Bank? Tell the world in unbias, unemotional terms why those settlements are ethical, honest, and legal. They are there to incite more violence and as part of the annexation of the West Bank.

There is no doubt the ultimate purpose of this invasion - ethnic cleansing. That is fact. That has always been fundamental to Sharon's policies. There is absolutely no doubt that Sharon advocates and does everything possible to annex the occupied territories. A few massacres of innocent civilians in Jenin is but a trivial matter to a man with so much blood already on his hands. What are 100 dead innocent civilians when you have already massacred 5,000 without any investigation?

An honest man would not trust anything from an Likud Israel. However, underoad posts Israeli propaganda without any necessary confirmation. A latest lie was nonsense about military men on the UN commission. There was no honesty in that response AND there was no need for any military men on any senior commission sent to investigate crimes against humanity. However, now that the Israeli demands were met that minute (a surprise to the dichead), then he suddenly changes his mind and bans the UN. Sharon is hiding something meaning that anyone who posts Israeli lies does not do so from an unbiased position.

The Arab world does not care about the Palestinians is nonsense promoted by right wing extremists. Arab concern is why Cheney had reality slapped into his face on his 11 day tour. It is why special plans were made in Crawford TX is the Saudi Prince left after only one hour.

Arabs are furious. As the Economist now notes, cafes turn silent (board games and gambling in Egypt now stops) every hour when Al Jezzera broadcasts the hourly news report. The man in the Arab street is furious. Tempers are seething. Extremists such as Osama bin Laden are finding recruits everywhere. Arab governments are desperately trying to maintain order and stability. It becomes harder every week while a US president without a backbone will try to forget he said "immediately". IOW your comments about the Arab world are biased in Likud terms only. ?We have yet to see the anger erupt.

[Undertoad]

Of course, only the 'approved' reporters are currently permitted in Jenin - something that Undertoad forgets to mention.

Yeah, 150 of them. Three reporters for every Palestinian killed.

But most who died were probably not combatents, but must be defined as combatants by Israel to not be guilty of crimes against humanity.

Oh, I'm sorry, were those the non-combatants who killed 33 Israeli soldiers?

Anyway, if there were any combatants in this UN-operated camp, they were already very much illegal. It is illegal to be a combatant in a refugee camp. And not for the combatants' sake... for the refugee's sake.

Yes, combatants in a refugee camp put their own civilians in danger. To booby trap a refugee camp is indefensible.

There is no doubt the ultimate purpose of this invasion - ethnic cleansing.

Rather than speculate about the hate that festers in Sharon's head, we are left to wonder what sort of hate festers in tw's.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by tw
Furthermore, Undertoad conveniently forgets that Israel promised to withdraw immediately about 1 month ago.

In what context though? Withdraw ALL troops immediately? Or immediately start withdrawing? A clear difference. This was highlighted by Dore Gold a few weeks ago. Gold stated that Israel would "begin" the withdrawal. When Chris Matthews challenged him on the idea of "immediate," Gold held firm on the beginnings of withdrawal. So, what WAS the actual promise tw...and by who?

Damn you Tony...you are SO illogical.

illogicla nad withotu ratinoal thoguht.

[jaguar]

yea fuck you too dham

The more you know. Why is Syria not allowed to give the Palestinians weapons? The main point of the much-ballyhooed UN 242 is that the Arab world has to stop waging war against Israel. Those are terms for peace in the mideast. You know, terms that ended a war, and that are meant to prevent the next one from starting soon.

First things first, please people, UN resolutions aren't worth the paper they’re written on, we all know that, the UN is, and always will be a paper tiger, so forget that. Secondly, 13 Israeli solders were killed by an estimated 6 militants, in response they demolished thoroughly an entire neighbourhood. Twas reported today that the Israeli military admitted systematic vandalism and theft of personal property, so much for surgical strikes. If you do this kind of thing, you have to expect "terrorists" to strike back it’s absolutely pointless. Secondly, refugee camp is a bit of a misnomer here. THis apcle has been around over 50 years, its abuilt up city, the term is redundant. As for booby traps, Tony why do you still think that having an organised army and killing people, is so much "cleaner" than killing them in an underhand manner becuase you are not allowed or capable of having a real army? What is the difference if a man in a uniform with a high power weapon imported form the US shoots someone to a man so desperate he straps a bomb to his body in order to inflict harm?

[Griff]

Originally posted by jaguar
What is the difference if a man in a uniform with a high power weapon imported form the US shoots someone to a man so desperate he straps a bomb to his body in order to inflict harm?

This is an important point. We may hope that military professionals will be more descriminate in choosing targets but that is pretty much the only difference. Representatives of a people don't suddenly become immune to moral restrictions because of their exalted (in some peoples minds) position.

At some point, the folks on the ground there have to realize that both Palestinians and Israelis have screwed and been screwed by each other, their Arab neighbors, Great Britain, the US, and their leaders. As we look at the situation from the outside, we risk personalizing it too much or not enough. American Jews need to realize, as enough American Irish finally have, that if they don't live there maybe they shouldn't be supporting the most extreme positions with money. Its really easy to be a radical when you're safely holed up in the US. As wide ranging as the Cellar opinions are, nobody here has eliminated sensible compromise. Even without hardcore extremists among us this is a terribly volatile discussion, given to emotional outbursts, imagine the pressure and stress for the folks there. Anyway, heres hoping we don't rend the fabric of the Cellar arguing about something which, if I had my way, would be none of our business.

[Undertoad]

As for booby traps, Tony why do you still think that having an organised army and killing people, is so much "cleaner" than killing them in an underhand manner becuase you are not allowed or capable of having a real army?

You can't just ignore the "if you are not allowed or capable of having a real army" part. Those were the terms that ended the last war and if those terms are meaningless, the next war will be worse.

Suicide bombing isn't an act of desperation. We explain it that way because that is the only explanation that fits for our culture, and some Palestinian spokesmen explain it that way because they feel it benefits their cause. But Arab & Persian culture is far different from ours. Suicide bombers believe they are killing evil people, benefitting their cause, and that they will gain salvation and eternal bliss through their act.

I'm very glad that the official complaint of "they murdered 500 of our people" has now come down to "they vandalized and stole stuff". I'm sure the soldiers are guilty as charged. Human Rights Watch is carefullly documenting rights violations and they certainly have found some. At the same time, is filling sewer lines with nails, diesel fuel, nitrogen fertilizer and sugar considered vandalism, or is that theft?

[jaguar]

*sighs*

You can't just ignore the "if you are not allowed or capable of having a real army" part. Those were the terms that ended the last war and if those terms are meaningless, the next war will be worse.

huh? Palastinaian governments shouldn't be given guns becasue they might shoot Isrelis with them?
Terms that ended the last war were obviously not good enough. I mean come on, we all know that no settlement that Israel has put on the table has a hope in hell of achieving lasting piece in the middle east because they are too goddamn pigheaded to actually give the people who used to live there before they were all forced out by the British a sliver of real land. Oh and expect them to have a few hundred fortified Jewish settlements in there but refuse to let back the people who were made refugees. One of those two, refugees or settlers has to go before a settlement will ever be possible and at least part of Jerusalem will need to be in Palestinian control. Until those terms on the table any Israeli "peace settlement" is smoke and mirrors to placate the international community and has no real substance.

Suicide bombing isn't an act of desperation. We explain it that way because that is the only explanation that fits for our culture, and some Palestinian spokesmen explain it that way because they feel it benefits their cause. But Arab & Persian culture is far different from ours. Suicide bombers believe they are killing evil people, benefitting their cause, and that they will gain salvation and eternal bliss through their act.

Its gone a little further than that, i've read three colums of late, all interviews with various palastinians, a female docotr, a milita member, an ordinary bloke. The hseer volumeof people willing to give thier lvies, and where they came form, some of these peopel were weeks short of finishing degrees and stuff reeks of desperation. The same desperation that has casued other freedom causes. I emna if you do daredevil ambushes you know are most likely going to end in death its no different, and yet people who have done that all though history are often exhalted for thier bravery, but when its a bomb strapped to you you're an evil terrorist.
right..

Griff - thats for a voice of moderation =) and if a debate risp arpat cellar i'd be pretty depressed it was so weak in the first place, not that i've been around much recently to know anyway.

Originally posted by jaguar
and yet people who have done that all though history are often exhalted for thier bravery, but when its a bomb strapped to you you're an evil terrorist.
right..

Man, are you seriously that oblivious to what's happening?

You're smart, Alex. So I'm not sure how you fail to miss the point about suicide bombers <b>killing innocent civilians</b>. That is a <b>pretty goddamn big difference</b>, and you're just excluding it. Why? Because it benefits your argument? Do you seriously not see the difference between armies fighting over land and extremists murdering innocent civilians?

Yes, when a bomb is strapped to you and you murder innocent civilians, you're a piece of shit. No doubt about it. I don't care what excuse you're going to give about desperation or their land being taken or whatever - the intentional murder of innocent civilians is inexcusable. You jump all over Israel for some deaths in a refugee camp but it's just hunky dory when a Palestinian girl detonates herself and takes out a 17 year old Israeli girl and a security guard at a grocery shop?

You're pointing out the "hypocrisy" of the other side but gleefully bathing in your own. It's absurd.

[jaguar]

ohh when did I become Alex? Makes you sound very,very authoritive, quaking in my boots.

You're smart, Alex. So I'm not sure how you fail to miss the point about suicide bombers killing innocent civilians. That is a pretty goddamn big difference, and you're just excluding it. Why? Because it benefits your argument? Do you seriously not see the difference between armies fighting over land and extremists murdering innocent civilians?

Well....lets go though this.
Israel
Large, powerful, modern army, classified as 3rd best in the world

Palestine:
Ragtag bunch of militias without an RPG between them

What do you suggest they do?
Launch a full scale assault? Peace sit-in protest in downtown Jerusalem? They *have* no other option, that’s the sad thing about it. Palestine as it is simply an absolutely horrible place to live, and Israel doesn't care. There are only so many ways you can get message across. Of course suicides bombings are awful, of course killing civilians is terrible, but Israel does it too; just don’t kill themselves in the process. I mean fuck how many stone throwing guys/kids has isreal shot? Look at the raw bodybounts. I don't hear you preaching about how godawful that is, how spraying live gunfire just above the heads of unarmed civilians instead of just telling them to get off the street before lowering it to chet height is disgraceful, or firing live rounds at peaceful international protesters is absolutely unacceptable. Not to mention using human shields, including ambulance officers, then shooting an ambulances. But when its some desperate kid who has nothing to live for and chooses to go out with a bang, its an abomonition that cannot be justified.

Its like Vietnam, to paraphrase a Vietcong solder I chatted to "We hated the Americans, at the end of the day, they could go back to base, be safe, get food, relax, for us the war was ongoing, we lived on food we hunted in the jungle, we were often close to starvation and if one of us was injured there wasn’t much we could do". The, Joe Israeli soldier spends a couple of weeks demolishing Palestinian neighbourhoods, then goes home and have a nice break. The only way you can win in a situation like that is to create paranoia in the enemy, force their hand. It’s fucking horrible whatever way you look at it but it’s the only option. Both sides should hang thier heads in shame, but one is a bunchof uncontrollable militas, the core of which are driven by fanatical relgiion whereas the other is meant to be a mdoern, organsied army, which is why thier crimes are far more unacceptable. Not that being a fundie jsutifies killing people, that reads terribly, but that the other reasons i listed, in my eyes make suidcide bombings an understandale response. Not jsutified, understandable.


oh btw i'm doing persuasive essay work/analysis in both english and international studies stuff at the moment, so i've been playing around here, its become a state of mind.

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by tw
My scenario for a Middle East solution is based upon this well proven history. The death rates must be higher and equal. Currently, not enough Israelis are dying to create a demand for peace. Best that we stay away and make sure death continues equally on both sides. Currently it is a one sided slaughter and we are supporting the aggressors. Peace therefore will not happen.

Wishful thinking.

I doubt that any death rate short of 100% will stop these people. The strategy you suggest (and it's not a bad one) has already been tried. It failed when Vespasian tried to implement it back in 67 A.D., and it wasn't any more successful for his son, Titus, a few years later. (Read Flavius Josephus' The Jewish War for the full, depressing details.)

Some things just won't solve... I suspect that, like division by zero or the square root of -1, the troubles in the Holy Land are beyond man's ability to solve.