Sanctuary - Page 2

piercehawkeye45 · 05-14-2007, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

Do you think this is relevant in some way or are you just trying to take a shot at the other team?

I am just saying that it is impossible to give a cost estimate of these because they are on-going, we have no idea what and how much of whatever is out there, and the cost rises dramatically with how much effort you put into it.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-14-2007, 09:43 PM

Well hell, every other project, public and private, has an estimate before it starts. How can you budget/finance without that?
I refuse to believe they can't estimate the cost, even if they are wrong.

Urbane Guerrilla · 05-14-2007, 09:10 PM

It's hardly petty and unrealistic, but the real problem isn't that America has an immigration problem: it's that too many other countries have a severe middle-class problem. The problem being that they don't have one.

The example is particularly obvious in Latin America: rather than the North American legion of smallholders, some of whom became by their efforts, well, largeholders, Latin America was sparsely colonized by fairly well-fixed aristocratic types and warriors who became large landholders, and there was practically no population between these and the landless, penniless masses.

This has persisted for a very long time. Anyone there who's sick of being penniless has to look elsewhere. And here they are -- and doing well enough to send billions in remittances to their families still in Mexico, keeping that economy afloat, being third in that nation's income behind tourism and oil.

Where the other nations have erred, and consequently are suffering a brain drain and a loss of talent and energy, is in not establishing an American-type sociopolitical order: secure property rights, an absolute minimum of government regulation (that's where we started, anyway), economic liberty to move one's funds around however one thinks best, political liberty and freedom of association -- all these things and more work together, making America supremely wealthy per capita, and all other contenders into also-rans, and also-stumbleds.

jinx · 05-14-2007, 09:18 PM

Are the ones who get in (illegally) more desperate than everyone else, or is it just more convenient/easier for them to sneak in? Some desperate people have entire oceans in their way...

bluecuracao · 05-14-2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

Are the ones who get in (illegally) more desperate than everyone else, or is it just more convenient/easier for them to sneak in? Some desperate people have entire oceans in their way...

I think it's safe to assume that the people who risk life and limb to get here illegally, are extremely desperate. In those cases, I don't think convenient or easy factor in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

It could be, but I'm having a hard time believing that mexico is the most desperate place on earth, and that's where the majority of our illegal immigrants come from.

A lot of illegal immigrants actually come through Mexico (if they can make it through, that is) from further points south. Although there are Mexicans who contend with very desperate conditions.

jinx · 05-14-2007, 10:05 PM

Mexico is the country of origin for 54% of illegal immigrants. 80% are from the western Hemisphere.

My point is, I don't think mexicans, canadians or peruvians have more of a right to be US citizens, just because its easier for them to sneak in, than people on the other side of the globe. I don't think "they're already here" is a good reason to let them stay.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-14-2007, 10:15 PM

The only reason they risk life and limb to get here is they are too lazy to fix their own country. It's easier to come here than put a stop to the corruption and mismanagement at home, that strangles their economy and keeps them poor. Where the hell is all the money from Mexico's oil fields? That sure didn't get spread around, but did they do anything about it? No, they came here instead.

bluecuracao · 05-14-2007, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

Mexico is the country of origin for 54% of illegal immigrants. 80% are from the western Hemisphere.

The info seems to be a little old...1996? I wonder if the estimated percentages still apply.

jinx · 05-15-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

The info seems to be a little old...1996? I wonder if the estimated percentages still apply.

Let us know what you find out.

Aliantha · 05-14-2007, 09:25 PM

Wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption to say that people that do enter countries illegally are by definition more desperate simply by demonstrating that they can't wait to go through the legal chanels?

jinx · 05-14-2007, 09:28 PM

Uh... no. No, I don't think it would.

Aliantha · 05-14-2007, 09:29 PM

Maybe it depends what your definition of desperate is.

jinx · 05-14-2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Maybe it depends what your definition of desperate is.

It could be, but I'm having a hard time believing that mexico is the most desperate place on earth, and that's where the majority of our illegal immigrants come from.

Aliantha · 05-14-2007, 09:48 PM

Yeah I guess that's true. I guess I"m looking at the kinds of illegal immigrants we get here, and I'd say that as a rule, their level of desperation is pretty well up there with the best of them. Most of them apply for visas with refugee status but not all are approved. I believe many are though.

Aliantha · 05-14-2007, 10:18 PM

Why didn't the Iraqis fix their own problem instead of allowing the US and friends to depose the dictator?

05-14-2007, 09:43 PM	#2
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Well hell, every other project, public and private, has an estimate before it starts. How can you budget/finance without that? I refuse to believe they can't estimate the cost, even if they are wrong. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-14-2007, 09:10 PM	#3
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	It's hardly petty and unrealistic, but the real problem isn't that America has an immigration problem: it's that too many other countries have a severe middle-class problem. The problem being that they don't have one. The example is particularly obvious in Latin America: rather than the North American legion of smallholders, some of whom became by their efforts, well, largeholders, Latin America was sparsely colonized by fairly well-fixed aristocratic types and warriors who became large landholders, and there was practically no population between these and the landless, penniless masses. This has persisted for a very long time. Anyone there who's sick of being penniless has to look elsewhere. And here they are -- and doing well enough to send billions in remittances to their families still in Mexico, keeping that economy afloat, being third in that nation's income behind tourism and oil. Where the other nations have erred, and consequently are suffering a brain drain and a loss of talent and energy, is in not establishing an American-type sociopolitical order: secure property rights, an absolute minimum of government regulation (that's where we started, anyway), economic liberty to move one's funds around however one thinks best, political liberty and freedom of association -- all these things and more work together, making America supremely wealthy per capita, and all other contenders into also-rans, and also-stumbleds. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

05-14-2007, 09:18 PM	#4
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Are the ones who get in (illegally) more desperate than everyone else, or is it just more convenient/easier for them to sneak in? Some desperate people have entire oceans in their way... __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

05-14-2007, 10:05 PM	#6
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Mexico is the country of origin for 54% of illegal immigrants. 80% are from the western Hemisphere. My point is, I don't think mexicans, canadians or peruvians have more of a right to be US citizens, just because its easier for them to sneak in, than people on the other side of the globe. I don't think "they're already here" is a good reason to let them stay. __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

05-14-2007, 10:15 PM	#7
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The only reason they risk life and limb to get here is they are too lazy to fix their own country. It's easier to come here than put a stop to the corruption and mismanagement at home, that strangles their economy and keeps them poor. Where the hell is all the money from Mexico's oil fields? That sure didn't get spread around, but did they do anything about it? No, they came here instead. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-14-2007, 09:25 PM	#10
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption to say that people that do enter countries illegally are by definition more desperate simply by demonstrating that they can't wait to go through the legal chanels? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-14-2007, 09:28 PM	#11
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Uh... no. No, I don't think it would. __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

05-14-2007, 09:29 PM	#12
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Maybe it depends what your definition of desperate is. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-14-2007, 09:48 PM	#14
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Yeah I guess that's true. I guess I"m looking at the kinds of illegal immigrants we get here, and I'd say that as a rule, their level of desperation is pretty well up there with the best of them. Most of them apply for visas with refugee status but not all are approved. I believe many are though. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-14-2007, 10:18 PM	#15
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Why didn't the Iraqis fix their own problem instead of allowing the US and friends to depose the dictator? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

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