An interesting view on the Muslims

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

Violence against abortion providers is heinous and inexcusable.

Violence against abortion providers in the US has resulted in 7 deaths, total. Every one of those was a tragedy, but this is just not the same thing as an entire culture that glorifies the violent death of their enemies, with particular emphasis on non-military targets.

True, but the point to be made is whether it's religion driving the violence or culture using religion as an excuse. Terrorism and war are both solutions to a political problem. Where insurgency becomes terrorism is a matter of choosing targets. In Northern Island, the clash was also between cultural groups that identified themselves by religion.

I'm not saying that parts of the Middle East aren't stuck a few hundred years in the past. I am saying that saying that cultural/political violence has not completely disappeared from any major religion in the world.

Civilians killed

Civilians account for the highest death toll at 53% or 1798 fatalities. Loyalist paramilitaries account for a higher proportion of civilian deaths (those with no military or paramilitary connection) according to figures published in Malcolm Sutton’s book, “Bear in Mind These Dead: An Index of Deaths from the Conflict in Ireland 1969 - 1993”. According to research undertaken by the CAIN organisation, based on Sutton's work, 85.6% (873) of Loyalist killings, 52.9% (190) by the security forces and 35.9% (738) of all killings by Republican paramilitaries took the lives of civilians between 1969 and 2001. The disparity of a relatively high civilian death toll yet low Republican percentage is explained by the fact that they also had a high combatants' death toll.

[Sundae]

And bear in mind those killed and wounded in Enniskillen. 11 wounded and 63 injured.
At a Remembrance Day service (Europe wide on 11 November or closest Sunday to it) to remember those fallen in all wars but specifically the two World Wars.

Old men. War survivors. Medals polished and standing to attention.

It was the highest death toll for any attack at its time.
Very little to do with religion, as suicide bombings are very little to do with religion. Some people just don't care who they kill.

I cried. My Mum cried. She was and still is a practicing Catholic.
Jesus never told anyone to kill. I don't know about the big M, but he probably didn't either.
People were practiced in killing long before they came along.

[piercehawkeye45]

Suicide terrorism doesn't necessarily have to do with religion but other factors.

But why are they prepared to kill themselves rather than conduct "normal" military attacks? A common assumption is that these jihadists must have been "brainwashed" or seized by the fervour of religious fundamentalism and cruelly initiated into a cult of death.

But is that the correct assumption? Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago the author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, who has conducted the most in-depth research into the motivations of suicide bombers certainly thinks not.

He has just outlined the findings of his revealing study of 462 suicide bombings across the globe to 50 of the FBI's top counter-terrorist chiefs.

His main conclusion is that suicide bombing is less about religious fundamentalism than secular or political grievances. Let me quote him at length from an interview he gave ABC Television in America:

There's a faulty premise in the current strategy on the war on terrorism. That faulty premise is that suicide terrorism and al- Qaida suicide terrorism in particular is mainly driven by an evil ideology Islamic fundamentalism independent of other circumstances.

However, the facts are that since 1980, suicide terrorist attacks from around the world over half have been secular. What over 95% of suicide attacks around the world [are about] is not religion, but a specific strategic purpose - to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly and this is, in fact, a centrepiece of al-Qaida's strategic logic, which is to compel the United States and western countries to abandon military commitments on the Arabian peninsula.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/arc...e_bombers.html

[TheMercenary]

Professor Pape's work is well known. But it has little bearing on the current situation in Iraq and Afganistan if you believe the people who are studying those conflicts.

[lushchocolateswirl]

this kind of sums up my perspective on all violence be it a world power or a back water of the earth.
Those who feel they are justified or never wrong will always speak the truth.


"Of course the people dont want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -
-- Hermann Goering

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Professor Pape's work is well known. But it has little bearing on the current situation in Iraq and Afganistan if you believe the people who are studying those conflicts.

That this is more cultural than religious?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

That this is more cultural than religious?

Well I think it is both in this conflict as well. But the motivations are much different IMHO. I consider more so the Iraq on Iraq and Afgan on Afgan than I do the attacks on any of the US or NATO forces. Much of the root cause is political as well with attempts to motivate and insite reprisal attacks by waring parties. There is much at play here.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Well I think it is both in this conflict as well. But the motivations are much different IMHO. I consider more so the Iraq on Iraq and Afgan on Afgan than I do the attacks on any of the US or NATO forces. Much of the root cause is political as well with attempts to motivate and insite reprisal attacks by waring parties. There is much at play here.

I agree. Forcing integration in these countries is not going to end well IMO. But unfortunately, there aren't many other choices.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Now tw's crying, "Poor me." Well, that's something new. A small thing, but a new thing. Being tw, he can't tell refutation from insult, and wouldn't want to if he could.

So we get self-pitying from him now. It's not exactly a shock. Tw's every personal trait ever displayed here seems designed to elicit contempt. I'm not, I think, alone in this perception.

Let's see, while I am on occasion abrasive while attempting to ablate somebody's layers of accreted BS, I retain my self-possession, and am not ruled by my resentments, nor am I petty, obsessive, or a leftover Communist, nor a palpable anti-patriot. I display fairness of mind regularly. I also display a clarity of vision tw lacks. Not bad for a guy who wears bifocals.

In what particulars, Glatt, am I overboard? Do you think I'm somehow unfair here?

And for those who wish to tell me be careful not to dislocate my arm patting myself on the back -- I'm double-jointed, too.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I agree. Forcing integration in these countries is not going to end well IMO. But unfortunately, there aren't many other choices.

I have said it before and will say it again. Partition is the only peaceful solution IMHO. Break it up into three parts and make Bagdad a center of the integrated parts. There is no other peaceful solution in my mind.

[Cicero]

This isn't the only thread this is occuring. I think they need their own thread to duke it out.

Guerilla vs. t-dub

[tw]

Originally Posted by Cicero

This isn't the only thread this is occuring.

Just priming a pump. Realize how volatile that ground water is. So easy to ignite a resultant waste that creates so much commotion and yet is not very bright.

Long before I started doing this, insults posted by UG were routine. Somehow, routine UG insults were acceptable whereas others doing less were banned.

So I prime the pump repeatedly waiting for others to note a double standard exists. Usually one post from me results in something like five posts from UG only intended to insult. It is acceptable here for UG to post insults probably for the same reason that Rush Limbaugh can insult - and therefore become popular. A double standard exists.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Become popular? UG? You've got to be kidding.

[piercehawkeye45]

I am for Iraqi self-determination so as long as Iraqis make the splits I am for it. I believe this may cause more problems in the short run but be much better over a longer period of time because drawing political lines based on colonialism will not allow peace except in military takeover.

[deadbeater]

Problem with walling Iraq: Sunnis get shafted, this time totally.