When Welfare Goes Wrong...

[Aliantha]

Well you probably need less people involved in their own life and greed and more interested in their community if you want more people to volunteer.

Personally, I think those days are over. At least the days when a large percentage of people considered it a duty or part of their lives once they retired or found themselves in a financially stable position. These days, people think about travelling and doing things for themselves when they retire etc. Not their community.

Yeah yeah I know there are still some about who fit the old mold, but nowhere near the number there used to be. I know my family has always been involved in programs like 'meals on wheels' and 'homecare' etc, and those of my aunts and uncles who volunteer are always saying how there's just not the number of people helping out that there used to be.

It's a sad reflection of society and where we're headed. Unfortunately, it's also a true one.

[DanaC]

It's also worth taking into account that of the x% fraud, a large chunk of that will be extremely minor. People claiming unemployment/disability and also doing a little cash in hand work a few times a year. I honestly don't have a problem with that kind of low level scamming of the system...a few extra ££s in the hands of some single mum who is struggling bothers me a whole heap less than the millions (billions now) that we as tax payers have given to the wealthy.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by DanaC

...a few extra ££s in the hands of some single mum who is struggling bothers me a whole heap less than the millions (billions now) that we as tax payers have given to the wealthy.

I, uh, I agree. With Dana! I agree with Dana!

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Brianna

I, uh, I agree. With Dana! I agree with Dana!

lol bloody hell, someone grab a calendar and mark this momentous event :P

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by DanaC

It's also worth taking into account that of the x% fraud, a large chunk of that will be extremely minor. People claiming unemployment/disability and also doing a little cash in hand work a few times a year. I honestly don't have a problem with that kind of low level scamming of the system...a few extra ££s in the hands of some single mum who is struggling bothers me a whole heap less than the millions (billions now) that we as tax payers have given to the wealthy.

I admit, I don't know the first thing about how things work on YOUR Island, but I wonder if your phraseology is accurate. You say 'tax payers have given to the wealthy.' Would it be more accurate to say 'millions of their earnings that you've allowed them to keep'?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

It's also worth taking into account that of the x% fraud, a large chunk of that will be extremely minor.

Even at 10% I don't find that dollar amount to minor. Maybe the UK's burden as a percentage of the total tax amount is smaller, but I am pretty sure Calif has a budget larger than the UK. So no, it is not an "extremely minor" amount of money.

Classicman's quote:

If you take into consideration that the Fed receives about 3.5 trillion in tax revenues a year then 2.34 trillion dollars goes into social assistance programs. (2,340,000,000,000 dollars) if only lets say that on the low end 10% of the total is fraudulent or misused then that is 234 billion dollars that is being stolen from the countries tax payers.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Even at 10% I don't find that dollar amount to minor. Maybe the UK's burden as a percentage of the total tax amount is smaller, but I am pretty sure Calif has a budget larger than the UK. So no, it is not an "extremely minor" amount of money.

You misunderstand me Merc: I wasn't suggesting that fraud accounts for a 'minor' amount of money; I was suggesting that of the amount we lose to fraud, a large percentage of that will be made up of a lot of minor acts frauds for minor amounts of money. The vast majority of those who fiddle the system do not do so for great amounts of money. There will be a few hardcore people who take a lot out of the system, but the majority of fraud is the kind I've already mentioned: people claiming unemployment whilst sneakily doing a few hours of cash-in-hand work.

Like I said before: I find it difficult to begrudge that extra £30 a week (or whatever) to some parent who is struggling to get Christmas pressies for their kids, or new school shoes. Unfortunately, these small-scale frauds are the ones that are chased most. Because their combined weight is so heavy, and because casual workers are easy to spot (investigators traul the 'hotspots' like building sites, bars and market stalls, particularly at this time of year) they are caught and punished.

Personally, I'd leave those alone and focus on the ones who are really taking the piss. There are people out there claiming every possible benefit; lying to the authorities about their partner living with them, when their partner earns more than the fraud investigators. Families living quite well thankyou very much and still claiming all the benefits they can. They're much harder to catch, requiring stakeouts and full-on investigations. So we focus most heavily on the small fry.

What I wold like to see is a moritorium on prosecutions for those taking on Christmas work. Those jobs are rarely anything more than a few weeks' work. The money they earn will go back into the economy: the poor don't save, they spend. At present, if someone is claiming benefits they can take on up to 16 hours a week of work without losing those benefits...but their benefit is reduced accordingly: they are allowed to keep £10 of what they earn over and above their benefits each week. We should be letting them keep a higher amount. If people could legitimately claim benefits and also earn, say £30 a week above their benefits, more people would end up in legitimate (and protected) part-time employment, which may well be a stepping stone to more permanent or full-time work.

As it is, in order to survive and give their families a decent life, many are trapped into illegal and unstable part-time work, dictated by how willing thir employer is to conspire in their fraud.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

You misunderstand me Merc: I wasn't suggesting that fraud accounts for a 'minor' amount of money; I was suggesting that of the amount we lose to fraud, a large percentage of that will be made up of a lot of minor acts frauds for minor amounts of money. The vast majority of those who fiddle the system do not do so for great amounts of money. There will be a few hardcore people who take a lot out of the system, but the majority of fraud is the kind I've already mentioned: people claiming unemployment whilst sneakily doing a few hours of cash-in-hand work.

Ok, I understand now and generally agree with this assessment. Thanks.

[classicman]

Personally, I hadn't thought of it that way, but that is probably an accurate statement.

[DanaC]

I was referring to the rescue packages for banks etc.

[Flint]

"All my pals are looking for work as well. But it's not that easy to get a job straightaway, you've got to write out your CV and everything and then hand it in to places."

Ah...she needs to join The Cellar, and have you lot walk her through the process (like you did with me). Thanks, again! Loving my new job.

[Pie]

Flint, the Cellar is a helpful place, no doubt.

But you wanted that job, and you looked for resources to help you get it. You interviewed for it, and hit it out of the park.

The resources are almost always available to those who are willing & able to make the effort to look for them.

[lookout123]

Shhh. he thinks he owes us, don't blow this.

[dar512]

I agree that welfare should only be given to those who truly need it. I think it harms the recipient far more than it harms society as a whole.

On the other hand, don't count on fixing welfare to make a big dent in your tax dollars (in the US). Do a google search for "government spending pie chart" and/or "government spending welfare".

I found this interesting. I know they have a bias, but it's certainly not hidden. They also supply the sources for their figures.

[Shawnee123]

A giant drug-addicted alcoholic part-time blow-job giver for drugs and alcohol was worried that they were going to take away her welfare, or whatever it was. She was afraid she might have to look for a J-O-B. Someone asked her "when was the last time you worked?" She thought for a second and said "Nahnteen Sebenty Nahn."

Seriously.