Oh, well, that's help enormously...

[classicman]

solution?

[DanaC]

I don't really have a solution. But neither do they. What they have is a series of populist kneejerk reactions that demonizes the poor and cements their image as the party of law and order, whilst doing absolutely no good whatsoever, and in fact exacerbating the problems these proposals are designed to tackle.

One thing I am absolutely sure of though: legal sanctions which differentiate between those with a wage and those without, and those who own their home and those who don't, have no place in a civilised society.

[classicman]

I love that you have no solution, but are willing to bitch at the attempts of others to create one.

So what if the penalty for a certain act was monetary, doesn't that discriminate? How about jail time?
(devil's advocate here)

[DanaC]

So, unless I have a well-thought out and soundly researched policy proposal, I should stfu when politicians choose strategies that fly in the face of common sense (imo), social science studies, and the advice of the experts they employ to advise them on matters about which they have an interested layman's level of expertise?

Don't be silly.

So what if the penalty for a certain act was monetary, doesn't that discriminate? How about jail time?
(devil's advocate here)

They discriminate at one level, inasmuch as a monetary penalty hits a poor person harder for instance. But separate streams of sanctions for a particular strata of society is extremely dangerous.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Griff

We need to start handing out birth control like candy as well.

That would fix a lot of our problems.

[classicman]

It wasn't directed at you personally. It was a general statement.
(After rereading, I'm sorry. That was poorly written)
WE ARE ALL quick to complain.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Griff

We need to start handing out birth control like candy as well

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That would fix a lot of our problems.

Birth control is already very accessible in this country, even to underage teens (and it makes religious and rightwing groups froth at the mouth). Termination is also free and readily available. Sex education is generally excellent. Despite what they say on Jeremy Kyle (they were probably blagging off that day, or tattooing their BF's name on their wrist with a compass and a biro).

It makes no difference, trust me.
Young girls want to pretend they didn't want sex. That they were seduced into it, that they were surprised by it, that it happened by chance. Being on the pill would make them a slag. And young lads "wouldn't wear wellies on the beach" ie would never consider putting something plastic and cumbersome on their precious knob. Making you wonder if they've ever even seen a condom.

I'd advocate fitting teen girls with a contraceptive implant until they are at least 18. But I probably wouldn't want to live in a country that was able to enforce that.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Those who riot and whose families own their own home aren't facing the same set of sanctions.

What sanctions are they facing?

[DanaC]

The rioters themselves are facing fines and prison sentences. But their families cannot be evicted unless they rent in the social sector.

[classicman]

And the families of the rioters that do NOT live in public housing? Is/are there any other penalties for them?

[DanaC]

No. That's kind of my point.


There are a few penalties that are available for the courts to use against parents of youth offenders, and they'e available across the board. These are things like asbos and fines, and even with repeat truants for example, short prison terms. But they're available to use against all. The eviction penalty or the loss of benefits are only available to use against families who claim assistance, and there is no equivalent penalty to use against those families who don't claim assistance.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Sundae

Young girls want to pretend they didn't want sex. That they were seduced into it, that they were surprised by it, that it happened by chance. Being on the pill would make them a slag.

Culturally, I've never seen that attitude myself. I've heard it said about teen girls in Asian countries too. Could be an American thing, or it could just be the group I hung around with. Many of my friends were on the pill, but that's also because we mostly had very liberal mothers--can't get a prescription without your parents' knowledge. Only condoms are freely available to anyone who wants to grab one.

[TheMercenary]

Now if we could just teach them the pill will not protect them from sexually transmitted diseases we might be on to something.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That would fix a lot of our problems.

Have you read Feakonomics? They did a detailed statistical analysis of the drop in crime in the USA in the 1990s, and found that there were several minor factors - economic improvement, more cops, longer prison time - which helped a bit, and one huge factor that explained most of it.

The big factor? It was about 17 years since the Roe Vs Wade decision.

Yup.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Culturally, I've never seen that attitude myself. I've heard it said about teen girls in Asian countries too.

My peer group all went on the Pill. I only knew one teenage pregnancy, and she conceived when she was 13 but she was in the year above and not a friend. None of us had sex until at least 16, so we were a little less impressionable by then.

But I do remember how we all felt about planning sex - it made it seem so cold and calculated! And how maidenly we all pretended to act. In the end we just felt we had too much to lose, so after a scare or a talking to by someone with brains where they should be, we gave up pretending we didn't want sex in order to be safe.

It seems the teen mums I've seen and read being interviewed had our naivity, but without the feeling that any resulting pregnancy would be a disaster - especially if school was not seen as important and their friends were already dropping out of education with babies.

It also helped that our boyfriends valued education and were terrified at the idea of being saddled with a kid before they'd even started their A Levels. I'm not saying I'd have trusted them if there was a male pill, but at least they understood the value of contraception, and the consequence of talking a girl into unprotected sex.