OMG! It's the Fiscal Cliff!

[Flint]

The super-rich are definitely swinging farther in that direction. Almost makes those 250k "fat-cats" look like they're in the middle class, huh?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Republicans have always wanted "small government." That means not only fewer taxes, but among other things, less government oversight in the form of regulatory agencies.

Not always, from Life magazine, June 21, 1954, The Republicans were gleefully screwing the free market with farm supports that were doing more harm than good.

[tw]

Is a fiscal cliff destructive? If yes, then someone is saying why with specific numbers. Nobody is. Why so much fear? Businessmen do not like unknowns. Bottom line: nobody knows what the fiscal cliff will do. Nobody knows quite how to plan for it. That lack of prediction and planning - not the actual cliff - has created fear. The cliff itself is not that destructive. The need to adapt to change scares the shit out of finance people.

Some businesses must adapt accordingly. Others will see no change. But due to spread sheet models that cannot define change or innonvation, then many businessmen are hyping an end of the world. Ironically setting up Republicans to become scapegoats just like Newt Gringrich was when he foolishly tried to shutdown government.

The fiscal cliff means many companies living fat off government must become more productive, search for new markets, or be properly punished by bankruptcy (what destroys bad management). Since many business managers have no idea how the work gets done, then they will be exposed as incompetent by a need to change. That incompetence - not the actual cliff - is probably the source of much fear.

[BigV]

what a great find xoB.

I think the president is in the driver's seat right now for exactly the same reason. Do this the right way for the country, the bleatings of the tea partyers notwithstanding, with revenue increases, including from tax rate increases on the top 2% along with cuts, maybe even means testing medicare/medicaid/social security/schedule changes/rate changes/income limits/etc

or

don't.

then boom goes the dynamite.

and the president can now come to congress with this proposal, hey I have a package here that REDUCES TAXES for 98% of the citizens, y'all want in on this? Or, are you gonna fuck them just to hold out for that last two percent?

Come on cliff. Let's do this thing.

[SamIam]

I'm with V. I'm disgusted with the way the Republican Party continues to cater to the extremely wealthy and the rest of the country be damned. I don't see how Republicans can continue to label the upper 2% as "job creators" while managing to keep their faces straight.

These "job creators" have had from the Bush administration to the present to expand the percentage of new jobs created in the US. To this day, there has been no significant increase in the number of jobs as a result of the upper 2% plowing their tax decrease bonanza back into American industry and business. Why should this change in 2014 and the years that follow?

During the election I was bemused to hear Romney and his Republican partners in crime talk about the 8 or 12 million or whatever fantastic number of new jobs it was that they were going to create. How? By getting rid of HUD and down sizing other government agencies? (Except for Defense, of course). By making deep cuts in or completely eliminating all programs which constitute the social safety net? By cutting discretionary spending and allowing the nation’s infrastructure to continue to deteriorate? HOW?

Now the greater good of the country is being held hostage for the benefit of a privileged few. Fuck that. I’ll go over the fiscal cliff just so those bastards will have to pay something approaching their fair share of the tax burden. If it’s the choice of a plutocracy versus the fiscal cliff, I’ll take the cliff every time.

[DanaC]

Relevance at around 3mins

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by SamIam

During the election I was bemused to hear Romney and his Republican partners in crime talk about the 8 or 12 million or whatever fantastic number of new jobs it was that they were going to create. How? By getting rid of HUD and down sizing other government agencies? (Except for Defense, of course). By making deep cuts in or completely eliminating all programs which constitute the social safety net? By cutting discretionary spending and allowing the nation’s infrastructure to continue to deteriorate? HOW?

By waiting until 12 million jobs are created, and taking credit. Apparently, 12 million was the estimate for new jobs in that time frame if nothing more was done.

[tw]

Originally Posted by SamIam

If it’s the choice of a plutocracy versus the fiscal cliff, I’ll take the cliff every time.

Some people pay good money just to ride a roller coaster. This one will be free? And no queueing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

We go off the cliff, everyone gets a tax increase. In February Obama sponsors a retroactive tax cut for the middle class and let the Republicans try to vote against that with impunity.

[Lamplighter]

Where is Adek when you need him ? Pls explain this to me...

Obama says...
The wealthy (>$250 k/yr) must pay higher tax rates

Republicans say...
"Revenue is on the table"
"Higher tax rates harm "job creators"
"New revenue can be found by eliminating business tax deductions and loopholes"
"Small business owners create more jobs that anyone else"

But, but, but...
Dun & Bradstreet
Scott Shane
5/3/12

Small Business Owners’ Earnings

Let’s start with the average small business owner.

Researchers at the U.S. Treasury’s Office of Tax Analysis examined IRS data on people who filed
personal income tax schedules C, E and F, Forms 1065, 1120 and 1120S because they had business income in 2007.
They found that the 9.4 million business owners generated $335 billion in net income in 2007.
That means the average small business owner’s net income was approximately $36,600 in the last pre-recession year.
<snip>
The average small business owner’s earnings are held down
by the large number of micro businesses with no employees.
The analysts at Treasury found that only about one-in-five small business owners have any employees.
And Census data show that non-employer businesses make very little.
While income data aren’t available, the average revenue of a non-employer firm in 2009 was less than $40,000

Also holding down average small business income is the large number of small companies set up as sole proprietorships.
Internal Revenue Service (IRS) data show that the average nonfarm sole proprietorship had net income of less than $12,000 in 2008.

More successful small business owners are generally set up as Sub Chapter S Corporations.
IRS data reveal that the average S-Corp generated about $100,000 income in 2007.
<snip>

So, are the Republicans knowingly proposing to eliminate deductions
that affect small business owners (earning less than $250 k/yr) ???

[Happy Monkey]

If your taxable income from a business is over $250,000, then either:
a) You're sucking the business dry before having it declare bankruptcy.
b) You have the worst accountant.
c) It's not a small business.

And most small businesses don't make enough revenue for a) or b).

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

If your taxable income from a business is over $250,000, then either:
a) You're sucking the business dry before having it declare bankruptcy.
b) You have the worst accountant.
c) It's not a small business.

And most small businesses don't make enough revenue for a) or b).

The other day I heard "Papa" John Schnatter call Papa John's a "small business".

Uhm. No mate. No.

[SamIam]

What Ibby said.

In my capacity as a US citizen, I have become increasingly disgusted with a government which does not work toward solving the serious issues facing our country, but instead continues to play party politics and the people be damned.

We do not live in a democracy when the interests of an elite 2% are upheld at the expense of the remaining 98% of the American people. Such a system can be called many things – a plutocracy, an oligarchy, even a dictatorship. What it cannot be called is a Democracy and certainly not a Republic.

Nor do we live in a Republic when Congress subscribes to the ideology of an extremist few such as the Tea Party, and in the name of that ideology enacts laws which are contrary to the greater good of the rest of the country. As Thomas Paine wrote,

“… How often is the natural propensity to society disturbed or destroyed by the operations of government! When the latter, instead of being engrafted on the principles of the former, assumes to exist for itself, and acts by partialities of favor and oppression, it becomes the cause of the mischiefs it ought to prevent.”

(emphais my own)

What we have now is a government of smoke and mirrors where those in power tell cynical lies to the governed and expect us to believe (or at least accept) a strongly partisan view of reality which is patently false. The upper 2% in wealth are neither “small businessmen” nor are they “job creators.”

Rather, they are the CEOs who outsource American jobs to make the bottom line look good. They are the officers of large corporations who will declare the businesses they run (into the ground) bankrupt even as they award themselves 100’s of millions in annual pay and bonuses. They are members of the contingent of super rich who have hidden $21 TRILLION in offshore banks in order to avoid taxes.

It is high time that the Tea Party and its admirers be called on their outrageous ideologies and refusal to consider any other ideas except their own. Are we a nation of free people or are we a bunch of sheep too ignorant to realize we are being led to the slaughter?

Fiscal cliff indeed!

[classicman]

Forward ... lets hit that cliff with both feet on the accelerator!

[Lamplighter]

That's what Thelma said.