Spirit or brain? - Page 2

elSicomoro · 06-02-2003, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Woo Hoo! That means when I look back at all the wrong choices I made, it wasn't my fault. It was preordained, preprogramed. Thanks, man.

Bastard Calvinists!

hot_pastrami · 06-03-2003, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Woo Hoo! That means when I look back at all the wrong choices I made, it wasn't my fault. It was preordained, preprogramed. Thanks, man.

I don't really look at life as though everything is pre-decided, I was just making a point about a possible scientific conclusion on our reality. I prefer to think that I have free will, and that I can make a difference, at least in a small part, on the future. Of course, maybe that's what I'm preprogrammed to want to believe.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-03-2003, 05:56 PM

Damn. I was hoping you guys were giving me an out.
I would like everything to be explainable in logical terms. But over the years I've come across too many things that just can't be explained. I'm not talking about anal probing aliens but strange feelings and physical occurrences that made the hair stand up on my neck. More importantly made my brain stutter. My brain says the soul/spirit isn't logical buy my gut dissagrees.

Whit · 06-06-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

From HP:
Even the direction that each subatamic particle came barreling out of the sigularity at the Big Bang (assuming you buy that theory) was governed by physics. If you put together the same set of circustances exactly, the laws of physics would still make the same calls and the same results would occur.

     Um... I think you're really underestimating the variety of exacting particle placement that can change everything. Or, on a larger scale I suggest an experiment. Put two dice on a slide with a six inch drop, record the number on the top and the number facing out so that you can insure placing them back exactly where they were, also, mark the exact positioning of the dice on the slide. Let them go. By your logic they'll come up the same each time since physics will do the same thing every time. You might find something random about the results.

hot_pastrami · 06-06-2003, 11:14 AM

You misconstrue my logic... the key phrase is "the same set of circumstances exactly." If I perform an experiment like the one you describe, the circumstances will be significantly different each time. I do not have the precision to place the dice in exactly the same point on the ruler each time, nor can I manage to push them with the same force, or be inhaling or exhaling with the same force, or get the angle exactly right, etc.

I'm not saying it's actually possible to recreate the circumstances of the Big Bang with exacting detail to the subatomic particle level, I'm just remarking that if it were possible, one might expect the universe to unfold in exactly the same way. It's just a complicated way of philosophising on whether we have genuine freedom of choice, or whether everything happens the way it does because it has to happen that way.

Whit · 06-06-2003, 04:09 PM

     Actually, you make my point, there are so many things that could be changed slightly that there's no reason to think things would be even similar. If the big bang reoccurred I believe the universe would be completely different. For the similar reasons to the dice. A smidgen different everything changes, why would it be exactly the same right down to the subatomic level? Sounds like a really odd assumption to me.
     Tieing all this back to subject, what about personality shifts due to brain injury or electroshock? Seems to me that the physical overcomes the spiritual in this case. Change the physical, and the spirit becomes unrecognizable.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-06-2003, 04:34 PM

I think a good example of personality shifts caused by outside influence is many war veterans. Especially in Viet Nam and earlier wars where soldiers saw extended fighting.

hot_pastrami · 06-06-2003, 04:43 PM

If the big bang simply reoccurred, sure, things would probably be different. But my thoughts are regarding an identical beginning, not just a big bang, but the same big bang. Every particle flies the same direction from the get-go.... what could happen to make things different?

(this may be lengthy...)

Perhaps if I put it another way... imagine for a moment that there is such a thing as a parallel universe. This parallel universe is completely disconnected and unaffected by events in ours. This parallel universe is created at precisely the same time in precisely the same way as ours, from an identical originating singularity. When the bang occured, the initial direction and speed of every subatomic particle would be the same, exactly mirroring ours, every particle in our universe having a couterpart in the parallel one.

These particles would eventually combine into hydrogen atoms (matter and antimatter), following the laws of physics (and quantum mechanics). Since all of the originating particles had the same speed and direction, and follow the same laws, one can assume that the counterparts to the particles which form atoms in our universe would also combine in the parallel universe.

Right or wrong? What could cause someting different to happen in the parallel universe? It's all governed by physics, there is no such thing as "random."

So these hydrogen atoms would start to succumb to gravity and pool up all over the place, many of the pools growing to the point where the mass and pressure starts a fusion reaction, and a star is born. Since this is also governed by physics, one can assume both universes would develop the exact same stars the exact same arrangement at the exact same time.

Am I wrong yet? If so, why? What would affect the outcome?

So the fusion process builds other atomic elements deep in the star, until the hydrogen fuel is depeted and the stars burn out, nova (blow off layers), or supernova (explode altogether). Stars which nova or supernova cast all kinds of atomic elements throughout the unverse, some of which will eventually form into planets. Again, can we assume that the mirrored universes would develop the exact same planets? One or more of which develop the exact same ecosystems, same life, and then the same individual life forms? Would those life forms lead identical lives, make the same choices and think the same things, just because they started from an identical beginning millions of years previously? Depite the fact that they were completely disconected from the other universe?

If you say No, then why? At what point could they possibly diverge?

I guess my point is that if you believe that individuals in the universes with identical beginnings could lead different lives, then like myself, you probably believe that we are more than the sum of our parts... that we are not just a bunch of atoms which ended up where they were inevitably going to end up from the very beginning. And that thing that makes us independent of the inevitable march of physics, that gives us choice... that is what I call a soul.

Wow, long. Sorry. Heheh.

Whit · 06-07-2003, 01:56 AM

     Okay HP, I give up. What's the deal with your "identical beginning" theory? I see no reason to think the big bang would happen the exact same way.
     As far as the 'if it did' scenario, I'd think every thing would continue to happen the same way. I don't see any reason to think that if it did our souls would mean a damn thing in changing any of it. To answer your question of individuals being able to be different in identical minds, bodies and circumstance, I wouldn't say no. I'd say if two identical people faced an identical situation then they'd have an identical response. Why would a soul matter anyway? We are suggesting that they would both make the same choice of thier own free will. Just because both did it doesn't mean both didn't make a choice true to them individualy. It sounds to me like you think they might not make the same choice, why not?

wolf · 06-07-2003, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whit
Tieing all this back to subject, what about personality shifts due to brain injury or electroshock? Seems to me that the physical overcomes the spiritual in this case. Change the physical, and the spirit becomes unrecognizable.

The spirit may well remain unchanged. We don't know. What can certainly change is the outward ability to express the spirit. Some brain injured patients may well be fully functional on the inside, but unable to express themselves. (isn't that a spooky idea)

Whit · 06-07-2003, 11:58 AM

     Spooky? Yes, very Johnny Got His Gun. But often enough the people can interact and are different. However, you make an interesting point. Up to this point we all have linked personality and spirit, why is this? What have we based this assumption on? I think it's especialy interesting because it was a general assumption, not jut me. I do realize that I started this assumption, but it did go unquestioned. Thoughts?

xoxoxoBruce · 06-07-2003, 03:20 PM

Isn't personality how a person interacts with others? This is a result of a combination of inputs during their lifetime from nutrition to love and everything in between. The distilled or maybe compounded result is your soul/spirit. It's the "you" inside the "bag of meat". Whether the soul/spirit exists after the "bag of meat" is something that has been and will be debated forever.

Whit · 06-07-2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Isn't personality how a person interacts with others?

     What? You have to interact to have a personality? Damn... I'm screwed...

xoxoxoBruce · 06-08-2003, 11:01 AM

Quote:

What? You have to interact to have a personality? Damn... I'm screwed...

Calm down, your not screwed....yet. You've got it backwards. You have to have a personality to interact not the other way 'round.:p

Whit · 06-08-2003, 11:14 AM

     I have to have a personality to interact? I'm still screwed...

06-03-2003, 05:56 PM	#18
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Damn. I was hoping you guys were giving me an out. I would like everything to be explainable in logical terms. But over the years I've come across too many things that just can't be explained. I'm not talking about anal probing aliens but strange feelings and physical occurrences that made the hair stand up on my neck. More importantly made my brain stutter. My brain says the soul/spirit isn't logical buy my gut dissagrees. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-06-2003, 11:14 AM	#20
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	You misconstrue my logic... the key phrase is "the same set of circumstances exactly." If I perform an experiment like the one you describe, the circumstances will be significantly different each time. I do not have the precision to place the dice in exactly the same point on the ruler each time, nor can I manage to push them with the same force, or be inhaling or exhaling with the same force, or get the angle exactly right, etc. I'm not saying it's actually possible to recreate the circumstances of the Big Bang with exacting detail to the subatomic particle level, I'm just remarking that if it <i>were</i> possible, one might expect the universe to unfold in exactly the same way. It's just a complicated way of philosophising on whether we have genuine freedom of choice, or whether everything happens the way it does because it <i>has</i> to happen that way. __________________ Hot Pastrami! Last edited by hot_pastrami; 06-06-2003 at 11:17 AM.

06-06-2003, 04:09 PM	#21
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Actually, you make my point, there are so many things that could be changed slightly that there's no reason to think things would be even similar. If the big bang reoccurred I believe the universe would be completely different. For the similar reasons to the dice. A smidgen different everything changes, why would it be exactly the same right down to the subatomic level? Sounds like a really odd assumption to me.      Tieing all this back to subject, what about personality shifts due to brain injury or electroshock? Seems to me that the physical overcomes the spiritual in this case. Change the physical, and the spirit becomes unrecognizable. __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

06-06-2003, 04:34 PM	#22
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I think a good example of personality shifts caused by outside influence is many war veterans. Especially in Viet Nam and earlier wars where soldiers saw extended fighting. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-06-2003, 04:43 PM	#23
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	If the big bang simply reoccurred, sure, things would probably be different. But my thoughts are regarding an identical beginning, not just a big bang, but the <i>same</i> big bang. Every particle flies the same direction from the get-go.... what could happen to make things different? (this may be lengthy...) Perhaps if I put it another way... imagine for a moment that there is such a thing as a parallel universe. This parallel universe is completely disconnected and unaffected by events in ours. This parallel universe is created at precisely the same time in precisely the same way as ours, from an <i>identical</i> originating singularity. When the bang occured, the initial direction and speed of every subatomic particle would be the same, exactly mirroring ours, every particle in our universe having a couterpart in the parallel one. These particles would eventually combine into hydrogen atoms (matter and antimatter), following the laws of physics (and quantum mechanics). Since all of the originating particles had the same speed and direction, and follow the same laws, one can assume that the counterparts to the particles which form atoms in our universe would also combine in the parallel universe. Right or wrong? What could cause someting different to happen in the parallel universe? It's all governed by physics, there is no such thing as "random." So these hydrogen atoms would start to succumb to gravity and pool up all over the place, many of the pools growing to the point where the mass and pressure starts a fusion reaction, and a star is born. Since this is also governed by physics, one can assume both universes would develop the exact same stars the exact same arrangement at the exact same time. Am I wrong yet? If so, why? What would affect the outcome? So the fusion process builds other atomic elements deep in the star, until the hydrogen fuel is depeted and the stars burn out, nova (blow off layers), or supernova (explode altogether). Stars which nova or supernova cast all kinds of atomic elements throughout the unverse, some of which will eventually form into planets. Again, can we assume that the mirrored universes would develop the exact same planets? One or more of which develop the exact same ecosystems, same life, and then the same individual life forms? Would those life forms lead identical lives, make the same choices and think the same things, just because they started from an identical beginning millions of years previously? Depite the fact that they were completely disconected from the other universe? If you say No, then why? At what point could they possibly diverge? I guess my point is that if you believe that individuals in the universes with identical beginnings could lead different lives, then like myself, you probably believe that we are more than the sum of our parts... that we are not just a bunch of atoms which ended up where they were inevitably going to end up from the very beginning. And that thing that makes us independent of the inevitable march of physics, that gives us choice... that is what I call a soul. Wow, long. Sorry. Heheh. __________________ Hot Pastrami! Last edited by hot_pastrami; 06-06-2003 at 05:04 PM.

06-07-2003, 01:56 AM	#24
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Okay HP, I give up. What's the deal with your "identical beginning" theory? I see no reason to think the big bang would happen the exact same way.      As far as the 'if it did' scenario, I'd think every thing would continue to happen the same way. I don't see any reason to think that if it did our souls would mean a damn thing in changing any of it. To answer your question of individuals being able to be different in identical minds, bodies and circumstance, I wouldn't say no. I'd say if two identical people faced an identical situation then they'd have an identical response. Why would a soul matter anyway? We are suggesting that they would both make the same choice of thier own free will. Just because both did it doesn't mean both didn't make a choice true to them individualy. It sounds to me like you think they might not make the same choice, why not? __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

06-07-2003, 11:58 AM	#26
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Spooky? Yes, very Johnny Got His Gun. But often enough the people can interact and are different. However, you make an interesting point. Up to this point we all have linked personality and spirit, why is this? What have we based this assumption on? I think it's especialy interesting because it was a general assumption, not jut me. I do realize that I started this assumption, but it did go unquestioned. Thoughts? __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

06-07-2003, 03:20 PM	#27
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Isn't personality how a person interacts with others? This is a result of a combination of inputs during their lifetime from nutrition to love and everything in between. The distilled or maybe compounded result is your soul/spirit. It's the "you" inside the "bag of meat". Whether the soul/spirit exists after the "bag of meat" is something that has been and will be debated forever. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-08-2003, 11:14 AM	#30
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	I have to have a personality to interact? I'm still screwed... __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

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