Carlo Giuliani vs. corporate juggernaut

[tw]

Originally posted by jaguar
Most of the violent anarchists are from radical socialist groups. Not a very smart cause, but a cause. And the fact that implying that by this the forfit thier right to life..

Look again at the picture. What is that on his head. He does not represent people. He is simply the latest version of Nazi Storm troopers who created 1930s anacrchy in order to advance themselves - people who crave power - everyone else be damned. Do we really want another Third Reich leadership?

Great world leaders don't field hooded demonstrators. Ghandhi and King used "non-violent" civil disobedience. Even Malcolm X's supporter in their most radical times did not cover their faces. In fact they wore suits and clean cut appearances.

Ironically, who did the Martin Luther King civil disobedience demonstrators rail against - with their faces exposed? The enemy of civil rights were again, "people with hoods" . That is not just a coincidence. Why did they wear hoods? Why did Carlos wear a hood?

Carlos is no different. He does not represent a just cause because he covers his face. He only represents self serving interests which is why he wears a woolen black ski mask in July in Italy. He got what he deserved - albeit extreme. It is better that he did not have to go to court because he killed someone - which is really what he wanted to do with that fire extinguisher. If someone was going to die, then Carlos and not the cop was the best choice.

The cause that Carlos really represents is a need for people to receive factual information. I maintain Carlos did not read The Economist - too much intellectual activity - which, BTW, was also characteristic of the 1930 Nazi party. If Carlos and his peers had their way, then the world would be a worse place.

The questions raised by anarchists are valid. Unfortunately who do they attack? People and institutions who have been asking and seeking answers to those same questions before Carlos was born, the organizations who have tried many different solutions so far without success; and those same institutions who have attempted new solutions again without success.

However Carlos represents those who know none of this. To have any sympathy for Carlos, you first must say that he was a victim of his own ignorance.

You could say that. However I don't believe these anarchists to be victims of ignorance. I believe these people, like British soccer hooligans, only want the thrill of violence. Globalization is just a cute tool to recruit more ignorant supporters who also only want the thrill of violence.

What is the downside to Carlos' death? Too many people will see the emotion of a dead adult child instead of first seeing the black hood. The first thing I see is a hood so black that we needed a separate picture to see his face. That black hood represents what Carlos really wanted. He wanted violence - not to advance mankind - which is why he did not even have the balls - was not even man enough - to show his face. Carlos destroyed his own life. I have no sympathy for Carlos who even dumped useless suffering upon his parents.

In 1968 Chicago, when the whole world was watching, - - no hooded faces - - because civil disobedience represented a real cause. To associate Carlos with any great civil movement is to praise Hilter for removing another institution - an elected government. Carlos only represents a selfish cause.

[Hubris Boy]

I think we've pretty well come to a consensus that Signore Giuliani was an idiot, or worse.

I'm curious, though... has anybody seen any biographical info on him? I've looked, but come up empty-handed. A Google search returns a lot of "Carlo Giuliani"s, but most of the sites are in Italian. The search is made more difficult by the fact that Giuliani seems to be a fairly common surname in Italy.

It might be enlightening to know how he ended up the way he did. Does anybody know anything about him? His background? His education? (Must have been pretty limited!) Did he belong to any political "groups", or was he just a free-lance moron? Etc., etc.

BTW tw- I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you're wide of the mark when you compare the rioters in Genoa to the Nazis. Both the Nazi and Communist parties in Weimar Germany were very well organized and reasonably disciplined. (When they weren't busy killing each other in the streets, that is.) More importantly, all the members were (theoretically) fighting for a common ideology, however abhorrent it may have been.

As far as I can tell, neither of these elements are present with Giuliani and his buddies. To call them anything other than vandals or hooligans is to give them too much credit. To suggest that they share a common goal, other than random violence, is absurd.

I wonder how many of them are just bored?

[elSicomoro]

Damn tw...about time you got back into the foray...

Originally posted by tw
Great leaders of civil unrest did so "non-violently". They also represented a cause.

Exactly. The best leaders were those who were nonviolent. MLK, Gandhi...they posed a threat to the system because they created change without resorting to force. Malcolm X too in his last few years. The government doesn't care about the militant types...well, they do. BUT I think the government only gives them a brief glance.

There is no cause in these street riots. Based upon interviews, most demonstrator rioters don't even have a clue about they they are rioting over. They don't even know the facts. They have been educated in the knowledge of Action News.

Okay, don't even get me started on that news station that is about 25 years behind the modern world. I can't believe how many people on phl.media defend that crap as news...like NBC10 is the only station in Philadelphia to sling shit. Hardly...

Now then...there can be no doubt that there are a handful of people...maybe even several hundred or thousand...that believe in whatever grievance they have against the G8, the WTO, the IMF, and/or the World Bank. But like New Kids on the Block, Lava Lamps, and the dot-com boom, everyone wants to hop on for the ride. Not to take away from the seriousness of the grievances, but it seems like these protests are a sort of fad of the moment.

[tw]

Originally posted by Hubris Boy
...
BTW tw- I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you're wide of the mark when you compare the rioters in Genoa to the Nazis. Both the Nazi and Communist parties in Weimar Germany were very well organized and reasonably disciplined. (When they weren't busy killing each other in the streets, that is.) More importantly, all the members were (theoretically) fighting for a common ideology, however abhorrent it may have been.

As far as I can tell, neither of these elements are present with Giuliani and his buddies. To call them anything other than vandals or hooligans is to give them too much credit. To suggest that they share a common goal, other than random violence, is absurd.

I am rather surprised to learn that even British soccer hooligans are organized. For example, in a PBS radio piece, the reporter got a chance to follow with one of the 'defacto' leaders as they rampaged through the streets of a European town. When blocked by the police, why does the crowd move in unision in a new direction? There are actually leaders who direct this thing. At one point, the leader ordered his hooligan troops to disperse where upon the merged together in another location. That takes organization.

The fact that these anti-globalization anarchists can collect in various cities on cue - even have warehouses setup to support their demonstrators in some cities (was it Washington DC that undermined these support facilities with building inspectors?). These are indeed quite organized anarchists - much like 1930 Nazi party storm troopers.

[jaguar]

Tw, you have a point but your also missing whats going on. The protest movement he is a member of is incredibly diverse, the media hates this coz it can't really sum it up or find a common spokesperson.

Regardless of how stupid the method is (and I never denied this guy wasn’t exactly bright) what most of these groups stand for is stuff we all would like - fairer governments in relation to corporations (i.e.: they don't own them), better environmental standards etc...Sure I don't believe that their method of doing this is correct, but its still good stuff, they are not trying to grab power (in most cases).
To be honest there is something in socialism, Sweden is a socialist state, higher taxes, but better public amenities, one of the lowest hard drug usage rates etc (I can start pulling more positive stats if you want but I have to be at a formal in an hour so).

The other thing is the overwhelming volume of protests and protesters are peaceful, we only generally see the worst. Your right, the big ones that got things done were pretty peaceful, and that will in most cases be correct. The violent fringe are mostly those that feel most disenfranchised by our society, it’s also something to cling to. The other thing is that ‘the great LEADERS' this movement has no leader, it has very diverse aims, it’s under no ones control, which makes it harder to stop such things. The recent events with adobe and that Russian programmer, as well as the arrest of all at a totally peaceful sit-in outside a logging company (not to mention the *special deals* that Nike and McDonalds, the two biggest corporate targets here have given to cops) have proven that states are often pawns to the companies that pay our elected leaders.

Italian cops have been very hard though, in one mass arrest at night while they were sleeping all but a couple of the protesters had to be taken to hospital and there was blood all over the walls.

There are anarchists and there are protesters, please note the difference.

The questions raised by anarchists are valid. Unfortunately who do they attack? People and institutions who have been asking and seeking answers to those same questions before Carlos was born, the organizations who have tried many different solutions so far without success; and those same institutions who have attempted new solutions again without success.

Sorry but if you think meetings like the WTO (are about solving the issues above in a reasonably manner, I’m past being able to believe that. After the US's flat refusal of Kyoto (Gee, it might hurt the economy (i.e.: god), that is bad, never mind the fact were going to kill ourselves in the process of making all this wonderful money) G8 I’m not sure about, but until people in power make a real stand on some of these issues those fortresses are going to have to keep getting bigger coz the cries of shame are getting louder. I would not be surprised to see an attempt at a fully armed and organized raid at one of these soon.

And I read somewhere this guy was the son of a union official.

[serge]

I think we admit to ourselves that the issues protestors are addressing hit very close to home for most human beings on this planet today. I also think that many of us feel the need to join the ranks and that this is already done by majority in some way or another. For example firmly expressing your views to friends/coworkers/bought officials.. that's the low end of the specter.. once the problems become more evident/persistent (environment getting fucked over by govs/corps., human/civil rights being slowly and steadily dissolved, etc), then I think more of us will move on to peaceful physical protests and beyond.....

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by jaguar
Tw, you have a point but your also missing whats going on. The protest movement he is a member of is incredibly diverse, the media hates this coz it can't really sum it up or find a common spokesperson.

This isn't necessarily a good thing though. Without a common goal, spokesperson, or target, the protests will continue to be as they are--somewhat organized, but with more dangerous fringe activity than needed.

Sweden is a socialist state, higher taxes, but better public amenities, one of the lowest hard drug usage rates etc (I can start pulling more positive stats if you want but I have to be at a formal in an hour so).

Last I heard, the dollars are starting to dwindle in Sweden and Canada. Socialism truly is a wonderful concept, but it costs money.

Sorry but if you think meetings like the WTO (are about solving the issues above in a reasonably manner, I’m past being able to believe that.

Damn jag...you're only 16...if you're this pessimistic now, wait til you're 40

Like Candide in the book by Voltaire, I still believe this is the best of all possible worlds. I knew damned good and well the US would never sign the Kyoto Protocol. Nor will the US sign off on the World Court deal involving prisoners that was going on a few months back. Nor will the US give what it truly should to the UN.

In 1914, the US was a big fan of isolationism, hence it took 3 years for us to join WW1. It's almost that way now. Lots of people freaked out over NAFTA, particularly unions...because they were afraid of jobs leaving the States. (That's a matter for another topic though.)

The point I'm making is that the US is slow to warm to a GLOBAL vision. Many folks (particularly Republicans/conservatives) don't look at the US as one cog in the global machine...they only want what's good for America. That may have been fine 70 years ago, but certainly not now. Our dues to the UN were held up for what? 2 years? All because Republicans didn't want to fund family planning issues within the UN (due to the possibility of abortion). Big business is lining the pockets of many politicians on both sides of the aisle...heaven forbid we clean up the air at the cost of capitalism. And actually, that's another perspective to look at--the US takes capitalism to great extremes.

But I still have faith that the US and the other members of the G8 will work together to make our world a better place for all people. I don't think it's fair to point the finger specifically at the G8 or the IMF, for example. As bureaucracies go, they try to do the best job they can within that red tape. The US is slow to warm up to things, but once the US is more isolated, they'll come around.

I won't deny that I have some skepticism, particularly because of the guy that was elected under suspicious pretenses here in the States. My other reason for trepidation is that the baby boomers started turning 55 this year...soon they'll be retiring. Their generation and the generation before it are THE capitalists--the folks driving the gas-guzzling SUVs, not caring about recycling, concerned with mass consumption. (Not all of them are like this of course, but this is an example.)

Your spirit is in the right place jag b/c you (as well as many others) obviously care about what is going on in our world. But if we lose any sense of optimism about the current times, the "powers that be" will seize upon it...and then nothing will ever change. I'm not all for the protests just yet, but I will try to do my part in other ways, such as my possible run for City Council.

[Undertoad]

Anyone who wants to understand soccer hooliganism must read "Among the Thugs". It's a first-person account of a journalist assimilating into a group of the violent.

They do have designated leaders, but it's not like they democratically elect someone and hold board meetings. They have alpha males just like any pack, and the alphas have learned how to manipulate mob situations through years of weekly experience.

The book also describes, in horrific detail, what you get if you cross Italian police: a beating worse than any of the violence that comes from the mob. The author found himself on the receiving end when he didn't follow the mob correctly. Clearly the cops enjoyed the violence just as much as the hooligans.

[jaguar]

Soccer hooligans remind me of tribes from millennia ago so much it’s not funny.....
The US now seems to be taking England’s stance for much of last centaury and the one before, a policy often described as 'splendid isolation', which suits me fine, there is no way in hell myself or anyone I know wishes in the US (apart from new York), all want to go to Europe that isn’t a corporate state.

Damn jag...you're only 16...if you're this pessimistic now, wait till you're 40

*laughs, welcome to the screwed up generation, 99% are deeply apathetic about anything outside their own little lives and the other 1% are extremely bitter.

I hate to start throwing round overused and abused term but the Italian police are fucking fascist.

But I still have faith that the US and the other members of the G8 will work together to make our world a better place for all people. I don't think it's fair to point the finger specifically at the G8 or the IMF, for example. As bureaucracies go, they try to do the best job they can within that red tape.

G8 may be able to do something, I don’t know enough about it but no business leaders are present so maybe they'll actually serve the interests of those who elected them instead of those who line their pockets oh so well. US politics are now a bought and sold resource, hard to have faith in that. Such meetings and organizations have become center points for protests because they are nice big targets and many different groups issues are covered, meaning you get one hell of allot of people on the ground (200,000 @ G8 I think?). In Melbourne they tried a system of letting protesters have a say inside the forum - but they did it in such a patronizing way (to the media some of the attendees called the protesters wild animals from inside the limos, while wearing Armani suits on the way back to their lear jets) that it had zero effect. Let them eat cake isn’t going to work in the end, and if something doesn’t change, history will repeat itself I fear.

On the other hand the fact we have time to protest about issues that don't effect as us as much (compared to French peasants, Russian peasants, pre-civil war America, French-occupied Vietnam) is good, and it says something good about society in general, just not those in power.


I'm not the kind who turns up to any old protest but I can tell you the mood on the ground is certainly getting uglier, there are more and more people saying 'this isn’t working, they don't want to listen, lets ramp it up to the next level' The next level is AK-47s, planned raids, high power internet attacks etc, and believe me there are the resources to do it too...

One of the things that *really* got me with the US election (apart from the Supreme court ruling it was legit to screw the voters by running out the clock then demonstrated how to do it) was that NAder was banned form attending, let alone participating in the presidential debates, the debates which were funded by the same corporations that gave so much $ to the two parties, talk about a duopoly.

I jsut try and make peopel actually interested in things outside the price of the latest MD..